??a question about bellhousing patterns

[mostly_broncos]

I have a C4 bellhousing the Part number is C5OP-7976-A. I forgot where it came from as I buy cars and trucks some times and things come with them its been in my storage for a longtime and I can't remember. I looked up the number and it tells me its for a small six engine with a 2 bolt starter. Someone that needs a bellhousing asked me if it would fit a 289 they have a 157 tooth flywheel now and feel that it should work.

Anyone know for sure?

 

[rocklord]

All 144-170-200 bellhousings (except for the 80s engines) utilize a high mounted starter; 250 engines and SBF V8s have bellhousings with low mount starters.

If your bellhousing has a high mount starter, it will not work with a V8.

 

[mostly_broncos]

The part number says its for a 250 on the page I found , but numbers starting in C5 should be 1965 and I was under the impression the 250 didn't exist that far back. That was confusing to me so I wasn't sure if there was an error in my information.

I have an engine plate for a smallblock V8 somewhere I could lay it over the bellhousing and see if the starter is off.

 

[rocklord]

Is it for a 240 instead of a 250? The 240 was around in 1965-66, but not the 250 (1969).

The 240 is in the 300 large six family.

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

The casting number will be for the original application , even if the engine is newer drive train and other casting numbers may be older than the application but never newer ( if original ) in mid 65 ford went to the 6 bolt bell , and it had a C5 casting , I'm betting that's the deal , if the starter is low then yes its a V-8 bell or big 6 bell from 65

 

[mostly_broncos]

I have it posted on ebay so not being sure what they were I looked up the numbers on this site.

http://mmerlinn.bravehost.com/trans/fdc4f/fd6c4bhm.htm

I have never had any small sixes other than 170 cu inch and those all came in early broncos with standard transmissions. I always thought of the 250 as a fairmont or some other car like that so I was surprised to see that come up because I have never owned one of those.

I just ran a text search on the chart I just linked to and that number does pop up as fitting a 289. I guess I sort of answered my own question. For some reason I stopped looking when I found the first number match. I'm glad I asked though because I didn't even think about the starter being in a different area. I found a small block C6 engine plate and matched it up and the starter is in the right spot just slightly inside which sounds correct for a 157 tooth flywheel in place of the 164 teeth.

Thanks everyone for the quick responses

 

[bubba22349]

If it's a 6 bolt bell it would fit the 250 six, 240/300 sixes as well as 1965 1/2 up 289, 302, 351 W & C blocks.

 

[xctasy]

In summary, the 250 used the first SBF/240/300 6 bolt bell housings from when first minted in mid 1965, so just because the first 250 came out in October 1967 in the entry level 68 Ranchero pick-up doesn't mean it would have had a C8 code bellhousing.

Basically, any year of any SBF/240/300 with a 157 or 164 tooth bellhousing will fit to a 1968 to 1981 US 250 engine.

According to Consumer Guides research from the 1984 book 85 years of Ford, Fords 250 was in its inaugaral 1968 year a commercial utility/pick-up engine. That meant L-code, 1968 Ford Ranchero 155 hp 250 engine, where the 289 and 390 were step up options, and the 200 was deemed to anemic for that pickup. It was then added as another optional six cylinder space filler for 1968 Mustangs when Dearborn couldn't get V8's. Unlike the G-code tunnel port 240 hp 302, it was probably more a paper 1968 option only. It was a standard 1969 Mustang option. It used the small six head, but the SBF bellhousing, and didn't have the space limitations the 240/300 engine in terms of height. So it was a typical roundhouse 360 degree Ford gap filler, just like the 351K 351 Modified and 400 Ford engines were half "385" big block, and half "335" Cleveland 351. Or how the 351 Windsor was half SBF and half Cleveland but still with the same small block heads, oiling and cooling system. Or Boss 302's which were just 289 4V HP's with 4V Cleveland heads and the later Boss 351's forged pistons. Some engineers really were accountants with SAE affiliations, the part sharing was just amazing.

Things are more simple when you consider that Fords empty box policy was actually a very savy cost reduction excercise. It followed Robert L Mc Namaras showing the maxim that Ford hates spending money on fully new components unless the costs can be amortized by entirely new sales that don't hurt existing numbers. His economic sense colored a neat picture in Fords history, and despite the latter affiliations with the Vietnam war machine, he gave secure roots to engineers as integrated accountants. It's accepted as bad business to forward a whole bunch of extra models for a reduced total market share, but it's quite okay to customise the range with new variants on an existing base, so 250's, 351 Windsors (W or K suffix), Cleveland 351's, Boss 302's, 400 Fords and then the very weird 351 M (Modified or K suffix) were the ultimate expression of Dearborns Japanese style production variation. It was the whole reason Ford was able to survive the fifteen bleak years between 1968 to 1983 when inflation and Federal standards brought powerplant advances to a screaming halt. The only exception was the Lima 2300, everything else was frozen developments off existing bases. There was nothing new after the 385 engines, the 250, 335 Clevelands, Modified and 400 Fords were just variants off existing forms. So was the 2300 a variant off the Pinto 2000. Nothing was all new untill the 1983 Essex V6, the draught breaker from the canted valve revoltion spawned in the 1968 429 Thunderbird. Sudden supply chain problems, like the massive 19 hp loss the six cylinder 3.3 liter 85 hp 1979 1/2 Mustang suffered when the 109 hp German 2.8 V6 got kept in Cologne to make Injected 160 hp German Granadas and Capris. This resulted in four long years until the engine could be re-engineered to be made in the US with the now ancient 20 year old V4 17M based engine getting a proper timing chain and cam rotation. It was first seen in the US in the mid engined Mustang I show car, two years before the front engined 64 1/2 Mustang came out.

Today, this is what makes Ford exceptionally interesting, with a large amount of variation and cross fertilization between engine families. 221 and 255 Windor V8's with 170 and 200 small six pistons, 2.3 and 2.5 HSC's with 250 Ford bearings and cam shaft centre spacings, and Aussie 250 block deck heights and 351w/302c length con rods. Clevelands with Big block valve gear and 5.0 with Boss rockers, interchangable 28 and 50 oz flywheel and flexplates, 351's with 370/429/460 distributors, 3.3 sixes with V8 C-series gearboxes, 351 W conrods in Aussie 302 Clevelands, the almost interchangable 351W to 351 M crank, the fact that a 4.0 Cologne can fit to a 1970's V6 2.0, 2.3, 2.6 Capri, or that the 78-83 Ford Fairmont and Mustang using a 6.75" diff based on German Atlas diff and Capri bolt pattern, that the Fox pickup points are T-series Taunus and Cortina, the 157 hp 1982 GT 5.0 used a nine year old 1973 351W cam profile...I won't go on.

Each halfway house engine or part was designed to supplant one another, with Canadian, US, Mexico or Brazillian sourced production depending on the plant, political or geographic requirements Ford had. Masterfull engineering competance which has allowed Ford to negotiate its way through the worst labor cost overruns in the history of the automobile.

 

[powerband]

Basically, any year of any SBF/240/300 with a 157 or 164 tooth bellhousing will fit to a 1968 to 1981 US 250 engine.

I run a C6DE 250 and also building a D7 250 block. Both had only flexplates when I got them. All my research says only 157 tooth FW will work because there are no US Bellhouse with starter position that fit the 250 with 164T FW. 157T V8 stuff- bells/FW's/starters/clutches/adapters seem to fit the SBF 157t V8 bells on the 250 from various builds posted but haven't seen any 164T 240/300 bell - 250 setups - 'glad to expand my data if possible... . 157T flywheels are not easily sourced as the 164's. Plenty of 157T 28 or 50 Oz external balance but internal balance 157T has few options.

SFI rated light 157 (SBF V8) FW sans bolt on imbalance weights / C5DA 157 bell / PMGR starter / (Z)T5 TL>T5 SBF adapter:

<>

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

Your research has a small oversight 351W Bells typically have the bigger Flywheel / Flex plate , Just use the 300 Flexplate, with it and now you have a big combo , been there done that .My C-4 250 Combo has the Big Bell / Flexplate , it helped quite a bit on the Cranking of a 12.3-1 motor

 

[xctasy]

....I run a C6DE 250 and also building a D7 250 block

Mmm! Okay but that confirms the Consumer Guide that the 250 engine was a pick-up truck engine, which then ended up in passenger cars. So where did you get a C6 DE 250 and D7 blocks from?

.... 351W Bells typically have the bigger Flywheel / Flex plate , Just use the 300 Flexplate, with it and now you have a big combo.....

Yeah, that's what we had down here too. We used lots of so-called C9 (small 157 teeth) and a so-called C10 (164 teeth, same as FMX). They were on two types of C4, case fill or pan fill.

That's what is so cool about the fat US 250 block. You can fit the really heavy duty big ass C4/C5 stuff right up. What we antipodean types have found is that later post 1983 5.0 (and 5.8 truck) stuff fits right up to any six bolt block, 240, US 250, 255-302-351.

If its a post 1983 manual, it will have a different trans centre hole diameter, bellhousing depth, and be designed for the T5. If it's auto, some 1966 to 1982 C4 bell housings run the same bellhousing as the C5 lock-up clutch auto bellhousing. The C5 used a stock small block truck bell design to fit the larger lock-up clutch, about 3/4" longer from stem to stern.


The 157 vs 164 switch over was different, depending on if it was a Windor 302 or 351, or a truck or passenger car. Down here from 1972-1985, we had Cleveland 302C and 351C's which followed standard truck 302W and 351W practice. Trucks generally used the bigger FMX auto with 164 teeth bell, or the larger pan fill C4's with 164 teeth if it was a 351. Some even had small bell C6's from the 4.9 300 engines.

The US sedan cars were a hotch potch of changes. The 1980 change to 50 oz from 28oz unbalance for 5.0's eliminated the earlier Mustang II 148 and 143 flexplate sizes, and probably the 157 teeth as well. For instance, the later X-shells (71-77 250 Maverick, 75-81 non Fox Granada) got little 157 tooth bells. The 1983 5.0 GT 4-BBL T5 area, everything went 164 teeth, but then the F150 truck used 5.0 engines with 50 oz unbalance, and also went to a bigger 164 teeth bell housing.

Our Aussie truck and car stuff used Canadian import US engines till 1973/1974 and US gearboxes always. The early F100 truck auto 302's used 157 teeth bells, but the sedan versions of the later 351C's used 164 teeth auto flywheels, and then the F150 versions from that time had 164 teeth bellhousings, with no manual options.

 

[powerband]

powerband wrote:
....I run a C6DE 250 and also building a D7 250 block

> Sorry to add confusion, I meant to type - I run a D6DE 250 . , only familiar with manual tranny parts, evidently automatic swaps also have a few niche areas.