Ballpark power estimate after rebuild

66Sprint6

Famous Member
I know I know, I am ALWAYS asking this question, but this time, the rebuild is happening and this is not a test, this is the real deal. How much power do you think my new combo will be worth, before and after boosting:

Bottom End: Balanced rotating assembly, ARP Rod bolts, Forged flat-top pistons, FSPP 274S cam (still not sure lobe separation yet, its in the works) Dual timing chain

Top End: Remanufactured Big Log/big valve head, new springs and teflon seals to match cam, 3angle, Holley 2300 (500cfm) direct mounted to head

Ignition: Duraspark, MSD 6AL (soon to be MSD BTM), ACCELL Coil and plug wires

Exhaust: Stock 69+ large manifold J piped to Buick GN ported Turbo

I am not sure how much boost we will run, probably 10-12psi if we can get away with it. The Compression should be around 8.4:1 with the pistons and new head, and the intercooler should help some to. This is all backed by a World Class T5.

What do yall think Im gettin myself into??? I would like to know everyones guestimate before I get it put back together and dyno the sucker!!!!
Matt
 
I have been pleasantly surprised by the accuracy of Dyno2000. I have a bunch of simulators and Dyno2000 seems to be the closest to reality of all the consumer level simulators. Pretty good actually, so far, it's been within at least 5% of actual builds. Like all simulators, though, garbage in, garbage out. Dyno2000 has a decent set of variables for different turbo and supercharger configurations. It could use a few more options on the exhaust system parameters... The other popular (cheap) desktop simulator, DeskTopDyno, seems to be on the "optimistic" side of things!
On your build, turbo and cam matching will be the big determining factor.
Rick(wrench)
 
I think you are looking at maybe $8000 and don't forget to add new tires to the list when you are finnished shredding the old ones up :twisted:

John
 
Matt,

My GUEsstimate would be 308 flywheel HP w/10# boost. Post your cam's profile someone will give you a closer estimate.
 
Once I get the cam profile I will post it, Im hoping to hear from AZcoupe soon about it. Once I hear from him I will be able to purchace the last of my needed parts and get this project rollin!!! Im excited as all get out let me tell ya!
Matt
 
Im going to say your pushing more than 300 maybe 350? but maybe not..... who knows I'm just going to say your going to be able to beat my record of 88 MPH TODAY!!!!
 
There are a lot of variables that you'll need to tune as you go along.

I loaded the basic specs into EA 3.0 and guessed at a cam. At 10 psi, I came up with 270 hp @ 6000.

But when I backed down the cam to a 252 Comp and lowered CR to 8.0, the power was still 266 @ 5200. The biggere cam has overlap that bleeds off exhaust pressure, at least in the simulation.

Even the dead stock cam pulled 244 hp @ 4700.

But intercooler efficiency, boost levels, exhaust efficiency, timing, etc. will all play a part in what the real figure will be.

Bottom line is that any combo on 10 psi will be a real strong engine, but be sure to use a supercharger/turbo-friendly cam.

BTW, at 12 psi, the figures approach 300 hp.
 
Yeah, word from Mike is that Comp Cams is custom making the cam for my application. He said he would email me the specs so Im waiting on them. Once I get them Ill post them here!
Matt
 
The cam is from Clay Smith. It's the same grind Does10 is using in his.

274 dur - 224 dur @50 - 480 lift - 112* lobe center.
 
Thanks for clearin that up AZ, not sure where I got Comp from.

68, I have broken 88mph, lol, Ive pushed it to 105 but got scared and didnt want to go any faster...and neither did the stang.
Matt
 
Yep, 272 at the flywheel @10psi according to Dyno2000. I'm always interested in seeing how accurate dyno software is.
Rick(wrench)
 
Excuse this, here is another wacko crusade from the brotha from down unda...

Switch to the next post if you want peace or no headache!


I haven't been able to load the EA 3.0 program on my computer yet, but I've gone over everything I can find on power calculations.

The thing that gets me is that the accuracy is relative to SAE net installed, and backpressure and engine heat create a difference. There are many variables.

The thing I do is look at what the engine runs stock, and then add the effective boost ratio.

A cam above 270 degrees will always add power on a turbo. ALWAYS. What is critical is that the turbo doesn't surge or overspeed. If you run a big cam, you will hurt low speed torque but could stand to gain a lot of extra power. Because our cars are steet cars, we get forced to run tame cams even if it has a turbo. That's why most everyone says no big cams.

The power in the 200 with 500 cfm and 274 high intensity cam on a wide lobe centre. The 112 lobe centres add low end torque, the stock 110 centres give good all round power with poorer low end torque. Power with this cam is less than on a 280 degree cam with 215 degrees at 50 thou on a 110 centre. Before turbo. After turbo, its likely to be much more.

The power without turbo and a set of headers should be about 175 hp at 5000 rpm with headers, and torque should be 185 to 190 lb-ft at 3700 rpm. The effective rev limit is 5500 rpm. Critical load is the con rod quality and poor rod length. When the turbo is added, it normally has the best iron exhast manifold you can get . The J-tube isn't that good. The effective boost at 10 psi is less than 1.68, minus a heating factor. Peak power is therefore

175 hp *1.68 *(.85) = 250 hp @ 5000 rpm
190 lb-ft *1.68 *(.85) =271 lb-ft @ 3600 rpm.

The cam will not scream as much as you think. The rod ratio, lobe centers and breathing restrictions tame the peak volumtric efficiency. The 200 is actually a great engine to super charge. It's hard to get a VE over 75 % even cammed up with a single carb and log head.

Upping the boost 20% results in less than 8% extra power. That's 268 hp and 290 lb-ft.

I doubt you'll get much higher than that. The carb isn't the restriction to power, its the response time to air fuel mixture changes. More carbs, more response.

What is loosened up in a normally aspirated engined is loosed in a turbo.

If head flow modifications were banned tomorrow, the best bolt on mod is three 2-bbl carbs. The dyno programs do allow for independent runner systems, and the log head can be converted to one with a few Offenhauser plate style tricks. The head may react well to porting, but I'd bet money a proper triple 2-bbl carb withy the stock head is the single best mod, not die grinding or otherwise. The ports are quite a good size, about 1.4", which is bigger than the cross flow.

For bang per buck, get a couple of extra carbs to ride shot gun with the single 500 cfm carb. The peak rev range for them is about 5500 rpm, and the effective improvement in head cfm and total VE is over 91% area.

On a V-8, independent runner systems are worth up to 25% over a properly sized big 4-bbl. On a six, it's likely to be much more than 50%. The 2v head alone is a 25% boost with a stock carb via much better flowing head and mandatory headers. The extra fuel via a 2-bbl is another 15%. Just a full 3 by 2bbl carb is the single biggest boost you can get on a six this site of a turbo, supercharger or nitrous. If the your amazing 200 will do 175 hp with a single 500 cfm Holley, then it will do 225 hp with carbs with six 35 mm chokes and 43 mm throttles.

A 29% power boost unturboed is a 29% boost turboed as well.

At 10 psi with one 500 cfm carb, 250 hp,

At 10 psi with three carbs, that's 323 hp .

The biggest restriction on the log , 2V or ME/SP I6 from giving the power per cube of a big 300 is just the amount of carbs. FrenchTown Flyer is onto something that is even more relevent to turbos than full-on drag cars. I delight in seeing the Argentine racers running 300 hp from a 188 Ford six with one IDF or DCNF Weber. I'd just bet with three of them, you'd get another 90 hp at the same revs!

The other plus is that you only need run 10 pounds boost, and still have a car you can drive everywhere!
 
So your sayin multiple carbs will help. What carbs would you run with the 500? I am gonna stick to the 500 direct mounted to the head for now and then maybe sometime down the road look into mulitpiple carbs. I also plan on eventually upgrading to turbo header as well. Right now were workin on gettin it set up, then we will worry about making it faster :o)
Matt
 
Xtaxi
what about fuel injection wouldn't that be even better, there has got to be a way to adapt mpfi to an oz or argie head! I know very little about it but there are conversions for jeeps inline 6's - couldn't they be adapted to fit our's?

thanks
John


Hey where did all these worms come from all the sudden!
 
If your askin me...
Not a supercharger, but a turbo off a later Buick Grand National. It is a Garret and some say it is similar to a T3/T4 hybrid.
Matt
 
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