building a dedicated E-85 motor

[SVO42]

I'm more interested in applications to the 200 if a six, but I''ve also had thoughts about this for my SVO. I still kinda want a late '70s/early '80s Fox body--just don't let my girlfriend find out.

I know certain rubber material shave to be switched, but I'm more concerned with the motor itself. For a naturally aspirated application running E-85, which has an octane rating of about 100-105, what would a good compression ratio be? I'm thinking that by building a motor designed to fully benefit from the fuel it would offset the loss in MPG compared to a flex-fuel vehicle that runs it.

The amount of boost I could run with that stuff in my SVO has me drooling, though. Mmm, 30 PSI...

What other issues can you guys think of building a E-85 motor?

It would be yet another way to limit dependence on oil. All I need is a little gasoline and a still in my backyard!

 

[SuperMag]

You'd be better off designing for straight alcohol. The only reason E85 exists is for compatibility (such as it is :roll: ) with gasoline.

 

[rbohm]

8) supermag is right. everything you wuld do to build a dedicated E85 engine is going to be a compromise, 10.25:1 compression rather than 11:1. less total timing, less jetting requirements though. in all you still need to build in the direction of a straight alcohol motor if you plan on running a carb. if on the other had you want to run efi, then you just have a programing change in the computer, once you had each fuel curve sorted out.

 

[Anonymous]

I've been thoroughly researching this myself,, and there are a couple of things to keep in mind. As aformentioned, E85 will have a somewhat lower octane rating than pure ethanol (the number I've heard for E85 was 102). Raising the compression ratio is the best thing you can do to realize the largest efficiency savings by taking advantage of this much higher compression ratio tolerance.

One of the benefits of E85 is that it makes it easier to start your engine in cold weather. Ethanol is less volatile than gasoline, and so it takes more heat to get it to evaporate.

One of the big drawbacks of E85 production is that the alcohol must be anhydrous (no water) in order for it to mix freely with gasoline. For instance,, you can burn 160 proof (20% water) ethanol in your car without any problems. If you wanted to mix any of this ethanol with gasoline to make E85 you'd have to distill it to at the very least 190 proof (which takes more heating fuel in the distilling process) and even at that point, you'd have to add a considerable amount of Benzene with the ethanol to get the water to dissolve in the gasoline. If you don't have anhydrous ethanol or at least 190 proof with benzene added, the ethanol and gasoline won't mix.

190 proof is about the limit on distillation. After that, you either have to pour your ethanol through dry rocksalt to remove the rest of the water, or mix it with quick lime (CaO) which will precipitate out hydrated lime removing the water from your ethanol. If you use lime, you then have to redistill the mixture to get the hydrated lime back out.

In essence, building your own still can be extremely economical if you have something to ferment (anything with starches or sugars) and extra fuel (wood, motor oil, etc) at your disposal to distil it. If your going to do it yourself, I would recommend building the motor for straight alcohol (160+proof) that you can cost effectively produce yourself. This will in turn allow you to run compression ratio's as great as 13.5:1 if you do it right, taking maximum advantage of the thermal efficiency gain ethanol allows. You could then still run E85 if you used an octane booster additive. The water in the 160+ proof ethanol won't hurt your engine and in fact will work much like water injection does to an extent, minimizing detonation even further.

If you're interested in a whole lot more information on the subject, there's a great compilation of info at:
http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html

 

[SVO42]

Thanks for the input, guys. While distilling my own ethanol would be best, I don't have the facilities right now to do it. However, here in the Midwest you can buy E85 at the pump almost everywhere now. I suppose I meant that a reason to build for E85 is convenience if I couldn't 'still my own hooch. 8)

 

[robbinsj]

I've been looking at alcohol as a fuel since 1977. Never had the time to play with it. Now I have a Studebaker inline 6, flathead in a pickup that I'm restoring and a 1969 Mustang with a 250 being rebuilt. I'm using a Weber 38 carb on the Mustang. Now that gas prices have hit $3 plus, I'm looking at alcohol a little harder. The truck won't ever be a cross country vehicle, just local, so I can set it up to run on alcohol. The Mustang with the Weber will actually be easier since the Webers have easily replaceable jets. Since the rebuild includes a hotter cam and significant head work, including an aticipated cr around 10.5:1, I had to order a jet kit for it anyway. I intend to play around with pure Ethanol, about 180 or 185 proof and see for myself if alcohol is workable. If it is, I'll get the still plans from the Journey to Forever site.....
-Joey

 

[rbohm]

8) alcohol is a viable fuel for street engines, you just have to be aware of a few limitations;

1: cold starts are much harder with alcohol.

2: alcohol is hydroscopic, so you need to make sure the containers you store it in are sealed.

3: on the plus side, you might be able to get a tax credit from your state government for using alcohol fuel.

4: when you run you alcohol fueled vehicle, do so out doors as the exhaust fumes can be very irritating to your eyes(just ask any racer that has used alcohol and run the racecar indoors).

5: to make your own fuel legally, you will have to file some paperwork with the ATF, indicating how much you plan to make per week, and what you intend to use the product for. as i recall you can make up to 5 gallons per week for drinking, but for fuel purposes you can make as much as you want, but definately check on that first.

 

[Anonymous]

Alcohol by fermentation is allowed, but under ATF rules, no alcohol can be refined by distillation unless you have a licensed plant.

 

[Silver Shadow]

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me1.html

An interesting read.

 

[rbohm]

Alcohol by fermentation is allowed, but under ATF rules, no alcohol can be refined by distillation unless you have a licensed plant.

8) as i stated, you have to file some paperwork with the ATF. as long as you get the required permit you can distill alcohol for personal use.

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/sho ... tid=500715

http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/sho ... tid=508002

 

[Hot 6t Falcon]

go here
http://www.alcohol4fuel.com/id32.html

and here
http://www.alcohol4fuel.com/id26.html

Everything you need to think about![/u]