Building Buck!!!

[MPGmustang]

Starting over, after long conversations and going back and forth of why I like my mustang and why I hate it I have decided to sell the mustang... there are too many mistakes to try and fix... and it still won't go off road like I want it too... so I'm building Buck to do just that.

this is Buck!

A 1966 Bronco, manufacuted in November 1965.
came with a LSD 4.11 axles, a 170ci engine, and a wagon hard top.

When I bought the truck I'm thinking, simple, and cheap, and smart... so I bought a v8 and put her in. now I'm not too sure...

I have realized why I love the mustang, it's the engine, it's the i6, it's the 'different', and I am surely going to miss it... except the 'no power' issue, but I keep thinking what if I did it right? so my Wife came up with the idea of building buck right... ... that got my head thinking... what if I start over with Buck... sell the mustang and put it all back into Buck...

So if I did it right I would need an i6, an automatic with overdrive, AC, headers, low profile cam, higher ratio rockers, man the list can go on... and on the top of the list is a Classic Inlines Aluminum Head!!!

somehow I go my Wife on board, and I'm stoked!!!

I'm really excited... with the Bronco I hope to do everything right. this is my one chance to have a car that won't break on me. the mustang was a learning curve, and the bronco will be the masterpeice with a 'frame off' restoration.

so, with that... I'm building a Torque monster 250ci...

so, I'm going to listen to everyone... but somethings I already know what I want;

Alum head, valve job only! no port or pollish, I figure it flows amazing as it, why push it? I want this to last decades!
250 ci bottom end, ARP rod bolts only, even thou I'll never use them... Balanced static and rotational.
cam, I want 20inches of vacuum, for the power brakes, but I know the little extra duration will wake up this 250 ci. so little over stock
header, CI header I love, it's perfect. so I'll stick with it, but the exhaust will be mute as I want to enjoy the area and not the sound I'm making...
4bbl intake, I'm going a FAST fuel injection. this thing will be a turn key, I don't want forced induction... simple with EFI
Power steering, a must
AC, I live in AZ and I want to enjoy my truck any day of the year.
We are thinking, 34-36inch tires, with 4.56 gears, OD will act like 3.5 gears which is the tallest you want on a barn.

Alright, go ahead, flame me... I'm just glad I get to keep an I6, I'm too attached.

What else can I do, to get the torque and HP above 200 at the tires?

Anyways, kinda wanted to get my build thread going...

 

[Gene Fiore]

As sad as it is to see the mustang go the only thing that keeps ringing in my ears is that "YOUR WIFE" is on board. Dude...did you get married and not tell anyone?? Seriously though, sounds like you will be building a heck of a motor. Maybe you should stick that V-8 you were going to put in BUCK in the mustang before you try to sell it...might get more for it...just saying cuz you know how people are when it comes to an inline 6. Good luck with it.!

 

[Soldmy66]

Why not swap existing engines (Mustang to Bronco, Bronco to Mustang) to get things rolling?

 

[MPGmustang]

the bronco is getting a frame off restoration, the mustang engine is the 200ci, I want an auto, need the 250 anyways... best to sell it.. I'll sell the mustang with the v8 from the bronco...

oh and the c4 in the bronco has a specific output shaft to couple with the transfer case... too much, and the sooner it's gone the sooner I can get buck fixed.

 

[bubba22349]

Sounds like you have a very good build plan started for the 250 in the Bronco. I like your plan for top end and it will build some more torque. Melling used to make a cam that was a "Torque Grind" for the 240 / 300. I used it in my truck was very good performer low to mid range wonder if they also made them for the 250? Than a little more compression around .5 to .8 could be about right for a 4X4 driver. Number of ways to go about it I have been thinking of it for awhile for updating my 250. Current think am leaning towards a set of longer rods like 300's and set of custom pistons (dished) to get quench tighter probably costly though. There was a post talking about other pistons combos a while back too.

 

[xctasy]

Excellent ideas. Well done. You and I do things in reverse, brother!

The 250 is perfect, and the Early Bronco is the worlds first SUV, probably the only one thats not a Silly Usless Vehicle, to follow StrangRanger speak. Besides, the Broncitis alloy head Super Charged poweder blue rocket just happens to be one of my favorite Fords, right up there with the White Ox and Mustang Geezers rides. Your EFI Mustang was a close fourth, and Buck Buster (bedee bedee bedee) looks like its right on the richterscale as number five!

It worked a similar way with me,

I got married in 1990, got mortgaged 1993, then got mortgaged again, only bigger, in 2003. Each time, I sold off my best cars so I could do something cost effective. This year, I was nervous as heck about owing the IRS money, so I sold my Explorer last month. But then, as fortune would have it, they refunded me 17 grand and know I'm a good citizen again.

In 1993, got rid of my Vauxhall Velox, 4speed, 3.45:1 Dana 44, 2262 cc engine, bench seat, pristine as

Got 800 bucks


In 2003, got rid of the 1982 2300 Propane Turbo Cortina Ghia, and my 15.9 second Propane 1984 Falcon GL. Got a piddly 1500 bucks.





http://youtu.be/JbZOX2LWsqY
http://youtu.be/WYYUCCWN7Ho

Got just $2600.

But because you do only what you can afford, and you find things that suit you, and because spent 8 years hoarding parts, and now I'm back into it with my Mustang with the support from my wife.

I'd much rather do a Jag IRS Ford Explorer with a 250 X-flow, but instead, its an AOD Mustang, Ak Miller style on Propane, 12.2 US gal propane tank, gasoline EFI and 22 gallon tank for road roughness work.

And, if you've got the support of those you love, and its your idea, that's the smartest thing you can do...

 

[thesameguy]

One thought: If you're trying to make power from the engine, but still want strong brakes I would *strongly* recommend just getting a vacuum pump, or better yet going hydroboost since you're going to have PS anyway. Decoupling brake performance from something as unpredictable as engine vacuum is a must for serious offroading, especially on a carbureted vehicle.

 

[xctasy]

We are in the 21 st Century Jungle now baby.....

(bedee bedee bedee) human life forms should avoid vacuum Buck Buster...

The AOD, if it has the Art Carr/Silver Fox vavle body and AOD lock out will romp around well with 4.56's. I'd guess good brakes via hydroboost would be a good idea, but one of the things I remember is that the Aussie 1981-1985 Bronco with a 351C 4-bbl used to love 3.9's, the old FMX lower ratios, and it used to do 17.9 second quarter miles with 216 hp net. But it was a short wheelbase 2 ton brick. A CI head on a 250 will make it like the 264 degree cammed 164 hp, 246 lb-ft EFI X-flow, a stalwart grunter the likes of no 4.9 or 5.0 could really match off idle.

On a little Bronco, the amazingly torquey 250 with AOD and 4.56's and biggies, it will just love an auto that can have its over drive locked out. The early Bronc is such a lot of fun, there's nothing to worry about when its not a 2 ton brick.

 

[bmbm40]

Sounds good-I like 66 Bronco's with a 250.
I guess you will have to cut it for 36's. One thing I want to do is move rear axle back at least an inch.

 

[xctasy]

As sad as it is to see the mustang go the only thing that keeps ringing in my ears is that "YOUR WIFE" is on board. Dude...did you get married and not tell anyone?? Seriously though, sounds like you will be building a heck of a motor. Maybe you should stick that V-8 you were going to put in BUCK in the mustang before you try to sell it...might get more for it...just saying cuz you know how people are when it comes to an inline 6. Good luck with it.!

I used to think that. Seeing FSD's 14 second 255 Triple Carb I6 sit for an age at just 1500 bux in the for sale section on this website, I think differently. We are frugal misers, us Sixers.

As for tha WEE Ding, you saw his (Da da da) Last Post?

Tue Sep 11, 2012

1) I don't do any tuning... yet... I THINK it is doing the alpha-n method
it has
TPS
Ignition (7 pin DUI so it controls timing and knows the RPM)
MAP
IAC
water temp sensor
narrow band O2 sensor...
AC high idle wire

2) this cam HAS ALWAYS ran this vacuum on idle, although I do think I have a vacuum leak. in all honesty I think it's been the most it's ever been on idle, it's really around 7-8 vacuum. CI says this cam will have 15 vacuum MAX, it does in the higher RPM's, and yes I have been thinking about swapping it out with something around 260* non-CSC like an isky, or comp, but that's not yet.

3) so NO WOT at cold temps... I understand what you are saying, the TBI is a hybrid, so it will have both symptoms in a way, when I floor it ATM it 'waits' then slowly it 'goes' and then it accel's. I'm not really driving it much due to needing spindles, and a new tune, and possibly a vacuum leak.

4) I have data logs, alot of them, don't know how to read them... I've sent them to AFI and they have a new chip coming to me, should be here on 9-13

5) I'm almost positive I have a vacuum leak... I took everything apart.


The putty is separating, I've talked to mike and he'll fix me up, but in the mean time I got nothing... I won't be able to drive like this for ever.
FOR NOW, until I can take the time to fix it, I'm taking the ultra copper RTV silicon gasket maker, and apply'n it all over the area, hoping it seals it long enough for me to have time to take the head off to get it fixed. I have one layer on right now, I'll do more layers, but the one moved the idle from 1300rpm to 1050rpm, so there is a possibliliy this 'patch' can work temporarily. I'm not drving it right now, but it's raining and here it would rust in a day if I took the head off outside so I'll have to wait for a garage.

all this and the wedding coming up... I'm very stressed.






(I have asked about the O2 wide band system, they have it but it won't be 'tie(d) into the ECM' so I do have a narrow band, it's works so nothing too bad about it)

October 1 did it.....VVVVV

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=68406&p=528129#p527888

Congrats on the nuptuals, bummer on the surgery..

I was digging the progress on this thread and then.. blindsided by a crapolier . My Step-Dad had one, I think my Ford inclined family ridiculed him until he sold it. I am not anti-GM btw.. '94 GMC and '12 Tahoe parked at my house, I just like saying "Crapolier".

I've been gone a while from the forum, but I assume that you did the 2v conversion on the factory 1bbl head?

 

[F100_SWB]

Best of luck with this project, I feel that your bronco is the kind of vehicle the 250 was meant to be in. I am actually knee deep in something surprisingly similar. How strongly do you feel about having an auto? http://classicbroncos.com/ZF_Transmission_Swap.shtml I'm going the ZF route. Basically a comfortable 3 speed around town with a granny and an overdrive whenever needed. Also, on the fuel injection, what are your thoughts on Holley Avenger 2v TBI? I am really looking forward to your progress on this. No doubt you will love this when it's done!

 

[chad]

"...the c4 in the bronco has a specific output shaft to couple with the transfer case..."
yes that C4 is bronk specific (pan is too, but not in them till '73). R U lookin to put in the AOD?
I'm not sure what yer sayin - I'm like the last poster, tho - a ZF 'd be nice. (One reason I got the 250/4.1.)

As posted B4, I think you'll like a 1 inch BL for 250 fitment...

 

[MPGmustang]

the auto cause it will keep it easier to drive. and it's a stipulation from the wife... she wants to drive it and enjoy the drive without thinking 'shift'... I'm on board with the idea, I only went t5 on the mustang cause of overdrive... so as long as I get OD and she gets Auto, I think we comprimised...

I would LOVE to see 200hp and 300tq at the (now 33inch) tires but I'll settle for close to... what can I do to get the torque up there without juice or force... all N/A...

the top end...
Alum head, 'virgin'
4bbl intake
1000cfm TBI from FAST
1.6 adjustable rockers (might swap to some full roller 1.65 but 1.6 is good enough)
ARP head studs
fellpro gasket

Bottom end...
static ballanced
rotational ballanced
ARP rod bolts
CAM**** need help!
dish pistons, stock

I'm 'KISS' to the build, most everything else will be stock, off the shelf and easy to find. nothing obscure...

I'm thinking a 260 to a 268 advertised dration cam, I want the engine to be TAME!! NO lope, high vac, smooth!! the 200ci has a slight lope with a 264/274-110 cam and VERY low vacuum... (which I figured out why the mustang has low vacuum, xctasy posted for me)... but this 250 needs to be better, the extra 50 c's should help tame it more, I know Gene's cam is around 278 cam, I'm thinking it's good but want more lower end so a 268/268-114 .480 cam would do the trick... or @ .050- 218/218-114 .480 making it a custom grind, installing it 0-4* advanced. using pump gas? i'm thinking 180hp with 9.1cr and 200hp with 9.5 and as it's alum head I might be able to get away with 89 oct?

what do you guy's think?

 

[Gene Fiore]

The cam question is always a tuff one...my 278/110 cam idles surprisingly smooth and pulls 15 to 16 inches of vacuum idling in park...but it is a solid lifter cam. Off idle throttle response is excellent. Tough call but I'm sure you will make an informed decision! Also remember that a cam with more overlap will reduce your dynamic compression which is also something to consider.

 

[xctasy]

The cam question is always a tuff one...my 278/110 cam idles surprisingly smooth and pulls 15 to 16 inches of vacuum idling in park...but it is a solid lifter cam. Off idle throttle response is excellent. Tough call but I'm sure you will make an informed decision! Also remember that a cam with more overlap will reduce your dynamic compression which is also something to consider.

In the case of the better flowing Classic AInlines alloy head, it will not like as bigger cam as your iron 2-v modified Log head will, nor even the very cam friendly Aussie 1985-1992 X-flow EFI 4.1 did. That is because 'camminess' is based on the port size cubic cc volume at the intake runner, and the plan area of the ports to the intake valve. The Aussie x-flow alloy head has very small runners, just an tiny 1.3" diameter, about the same as a 170 dog turd intake runner, while the Aussie 2V has 1.62" diameter ports. The log head is close to the Aussie 2V and Classic Inlines at the port face, but the runners volume per cylinder is much smaller. The most sensitive to cam duration engine is the Aussie 2v on a 200 block. Its easy to over cam that configuration. The 250 is less sensitive, but in an off road format, there is a risk that a Classic Inlines head with a nice 278/110 combo will be a lot less tractorable than an iron log direct mount log.

The factory X-flow EFI cam profile won't screw up a Classic Inlines headed 250 for low end torque, but a 274/278 may unless there is carefull attention to degreeing it and creating the absolutely ideal compression requirements. Since even getting the cam degreed properly on the US 250 is hard to do, we are still in infancy over the Classic Inlines head verses cam duration alogoritim for Sport Utility Vehicles. I've seen 280 degree cams work really well on X-flow 250's with port EFI, 2.77;1 diff, T5 manual. Example was the DJR SVO Falcon 4.1 EFI project vehicle in 1987, but a non port EFI/ big port Classic Inlines head flows considerably more than any stock X-flow head, and in an automatic application where its primary use is clambering over Americas backbone, I'd be a little reluctant to recommend to go over 274 degree cams unless there could be very carfull attention given to

1) effective compression,
2) off the seat duration at sub 30 thou intake and exhast vlave lift,
3) and cold cranking compression and
4) degreeing requirements.

Past 270 degrees, those nice, big, round CI ports could really mess up the tractorbility factor of a in line Ford six. On a 170 with a Clay Smith 260 degree cam or a 200 with a 264 cam or a 250 with a 268 cam, probably never a problem.

Austin (BMC) found this out in 1964 when the up rated Cooper S head was phased into the 970, 1071 and 1275 Cooper S engines. Formerly, any 997, 1098 engine that liked 288 and 300 degree cams with the earlier reduced cfm 12G295 head couldn't even idle with just a 268/288 split cam and the new head. The head cfm figures for the new head were only up 25%, but the resultant reponse to big cams with that head became tragically bad.

The measure for loss of torque with an auto and a really good Classic Inlines head has to be the old Vizard standard...at 30 thou lift of the exhast and intake valve, is the duration less than the stock 256 cam? If it is, it'll have great dollops of low end torque. If not, it'll loose torque down low.

Second point is that if you raise effective compression, your cam can go up to the same level as the stock 250 256 cam profile at most, so you can run a quite radical cam on any 250, even if it has a Aussie 2V or Classic Inlines head. The key is that the only way to controll effective compression safely is to over do it on duration, then over do it on static compression, while not hurting the figures compared to stock effective compression at 8.3:1 static compression with 256 cam, and not to hurt the durstion at 30 thou exhast and intake lift.

I guess a 280 degree cam could just meet those requirements and still be streeatble with good off idle torque, but it would be tough to ensure the cam was degreed excatly right so the cold cranking compression was low enough.

I'll bet Clay Smith know exactly how far the cam relationship can be pushed with a CI headed 250. Chat to them and see.

 

[Broncitis]

MPG if you PM myself I will give you my phone # and help you as much as I can, I developed a cam with bullet cams for just what you seek, but decided tp go with a blower and sent the cam to a guy that both Mike and I thought was a friend, but not to be so, your first challenge will be an oil pan for the 250, there isn't one for the bronco with 250, you will have to make one out of two oil pans, personally I believe the 200 is plenty with an aluminum head, your biggest gain with 250 in 4 WD is clutch capacity unless you get a late 200, I had a special clutch developed by hr clutches for the 9.25 and have yet to tear it up, but it sounds like you want an auto anyways, if going offroad the np435 is hard to beat period for a crawl ratio and still a 1.1 for the highway, it shifts like a tank though, personally I would not worry about overdrive with either motor, because once my bronco was decked out, it weighed 4300 lbs with me in it. EZ efi is a dinosaur in easy efi, MSD ATOMIC and projection 111 are the easiest, Mike and I knew a guy that was making adapters for different cfm flow to put on the top of the pro 111 and I believe it to be the simplest by far, you might as well do mpfi with all the wiring with EZ efi. Plus on a 200 with flat tops and zero deck are just about right with the 56cc aluminum head.

 

[Broncitis]

xctasy, that was a very nice compliment on the old bronco, I will hejp this kid all I can and keep him from making all of my mistakes if I can.

 

[Broncitis]

The first thing I would do is start with safety, the brakes on the pre 75 ebs is horrible and to put a disk brake kit on the dana 30 is a waste of money and time, for less than the price of a dsk brake kit, you can buy a 78 or 79 f150 front end, it will be a dana 44 and have 11 inch discs and then buy 1979 ford thunderbird calipers that are a direct fit with a larger piston, you will have to shorten the passenger side exactly 6 inches by grinding the shaft out of the cast wedge assembly and removing 6 inches and then stick it back together and weld it back up in a jig to make sure everything is lined up properly, you can find these with 4.11 gears if you are patient for around 350-400 dollars. You won't have to do anything else, master cylinder and propotioning valve will work great and you don't need power brakes are discs in the rear, it will stop very very well On the passenger side you will have to buy the inner shaft for a 76-77 EB with disc brakes, just make sure it is for the larger joint because the earlier 44 were smaller, now you have a very strong dana 44 with the large U jounts and no better brakes you can buy to adapt, also this 44 will have the high pinion for better ground clearance. At the same time you can change all your bushing, when you put the washer and seal on the back of spindle bearing, pack the inside of seal with grease and let it come out and wipe away excess, the spindle bearing is by far the weak spot on dana front diffs, they are always shot on a rebuild.

 

[MPGmustang]

The 250 cause of the v8 trans options, I don't want to be limited on choices and HD mods.

oil pan, I have a v8 bronco engine, it has the correct oil pan, can I cut that one up and fit it to a 250 oil pan?
I really like the AOD, the overdrive would be really nice as we want to use this as a light trail rig, camper, nothing with high difficulty or large rocks/mud pits. the AOD will help with fuel, and the 4.56 gears will help with off road. twin stick dana-20 Tcase will help also. I'm building the i6, I'm having a shop look at my c4, it it needs rebuilding we will go AOD, if it's good we will plug and play with different gears to get close to the same 2300-2500 cruise RPM at 70mph

I want disks on all corners... that dana 44 high pinion would be great, but all work done will be by axle shop. I won't trust myself to learn welding on an axle... motor mounts yes but not an axle. I like the axle idea though, the higher pinion is a good thing, but my mod sills on this bronco will be as good as the shop that does it.

I like atomic better, I want the timing controled, either a DUI distributor or DSII with MSD box, i'm sure the power steering pump will push me in the right direction... FAST was used as an example, I knew the setup learned. I don't think I want MPFI as I'm keeping everything simple and clean. the less the better, hopefully a returnless EFI is avail to the system I get.

I figure I can get the bronco done for about 15k, maybe 20k, but should take a few years. I hope I can learn from your wisdom to do things right. I might as well. but that's only if I do it right the first time. and paint will be a simple rattle can job... hopefully it won't look too good when it's done.

I did send you a PM and my number.

 

[bmbm40]

You may get that v8/250 pan mod to work. The two methods I am familiar with are cutting a 170/200 Bronco oil pan flange off and welding it onto a 250 flange or cutting a 250 pan from the flange turning front to back and welding. you have to work with the pick up tube also.
I was interested in the aode, no mechanical kick down linkage so must need some type of controller I believe or the 4r70w which needs a controller also but apparently you can program each shift point to suit the power curve.