Building Buck!!!

[chad]

I'd be less concerned with the pan mods and more w/the hood clearence. Some use the Mavrick mounts and 'slot' the towers to get it in.
Some of the things the bronk is screamin for from the factory (& I'm not alone in this opinion) is a 1 inch BL & the 4 discs (the latter U mentioned). It just looks better w/the lift - solves lotta engine & tranny swap issues. I like the F250 frnt shock 'buckets' w/a Bilstine 5200 (that shock all around like the discs). Also a SMALL SL. and non-cut fenders (but that's just me). I lucked out and got a '77 frnt end (D44 with discs) & put '85 el dorado's in the back cuz it's got e-brake capacity. Used '86 CJ rotors. (or may B the yrs are the other way around?).
The C4 is nice (started em in EBs in '73) as I understand it 'robs the least power' of any auto so good luck w/it's condition. It's EB specific so will sell on the CB site locally I believe, no matter the condition. Lotsa bronks locally I'd bet. Some 1 stold all my parts (converter, 'kick down cable'). The 3.03 may sell to local racers. I have a friend w/a stock car that has one (good to 500 HP) or a similar chebby truck tranny, they're light/strong & he used only 2 gears anyway. Sell, sell, sell...$15 - 20 K is a long way (esp 2 me! I think it's taken me the whole 28 yrs to put the 7 - 10K in).

BTW: think about a summary thread or some other abstract as I know Mike has an interest in posting a "sticky" for others about the EB/250 conversion.

 

[MPGmustang]

I'm gonna see if I can get that engine from NM... someone else from tempe is try'n also, grr... it will have the oil pan all ready to go, and it's a 250 block with PS and AC ready to go...

I took the specs for a 250ci, built it with a 210/210 112 .500 cam profile, added the flow of the Alum head, looked at the specs from atomic and put in some 32/hr injectors on a 750 cfm tbi and got the following on my engine dyno software... this should be really close to rear wheel hp... maybe a max 20 higher than what I will actually see. except the tq curve should stay flat up there... I think this is if it was a 'v6' on the tq. but the HP is close even when I plug in my 200ci specs.

IMO, I really like it. it's exactly what I'm looking for.

I'm still looking for a bronco tub, so if anyone see's anything let me know...

 

[MPGmustang]

for an off road 250ci, what is everyone's take on a @.050-210/210 112 .500 cam? I was told the 110 lobe should produce enough vacuum, but I want alot of vacuum. it will be installed @ 0*

for a prespective...
264/264 is a @.050 214/214 cam... so I'm thinking close to a 260/260 duration cam for my off road trail boss.

 

[xctasy]

With the alloy head, even on the 250, go to the smaller cam. If you have a 264, use it, but if you want a 260, it'll give more off idle torque.
The slightly bigger 250 and its alloy head will cope with a bigger cam, but will probably not have the loew end torque that even an iron head with a 278 cam will. Anytime you have extra airflow, cam selection must be moderated, as the engine becomes more 'cammy' at lower revs.

Twop examples. For years, Fords Australian intermediate canted valve 4bbl 2V headed engines (Clevelands 351) ran 256 degree cams and heavily dampened secondaries. As soon as they started using the Super Cobra Jet hyraulic and 351 Boss mechanical cams on the up spec (280 split or 290, 300, or 310 degree cams on the Boss variants we used in RPO083'S in Australia), the low end torque just died. They later found the fire breathing 4v heads made better torque down low with a mild, special lower duration cam profile, with no loss on high end power. Even with the worlds best headers, verses the stock iron dual exhast set up, the cars lost torque. From 1970 to 1971, Ford Australia knocked 10 degrees off the cam timing, and got 20 extra horsepower (330 hp verses 350 hp net) and better low end torque on there wildest GTHO engine. By 1971, DeTomaso's 330 hp net 4-bbl used a hydraulic cam to create even better low end torque. By 1974, the best engines had small port 4V Aussie heads and 256 degree cams, and by the time they got Duraspark in the 2V headed 351 4-BBL of 1976, the car had picked up so much more low end torque, yet still landed sub 16 second quarters, and beeter economy with an FMX and another 200 pounds.

You've also heard my 1960'S Mini Cooper S anology, where the radical cylinder heads with special short stroke, large bore engines came with an exceedingly mild cam, less duration and lift than the 997 and 1098 cc twin carb performance versions. There was a radical BMC racing cam they used on the Cooper 1100 open wheelers, that would work great on the smaller head, but wouldn't even hardly idle on a Cooper S. That's because a restrictive head loves big cam lift and duration, but a radically well flowing head hates duration and lift, and can loose a significant amount of low end torque.

 

[chad]

I wuz thinkin a 278 cam due to 'large log' head & big 1V Carter for the tqier low economy (87 octane) 250 off roader...
it's got pizza cutter 33" (X 9.50") & 411 gear

 

[MPGmustang]

X- that's what I was thinking... the extra flow of the head would make the 264 almost too much duration for what I want. what about the lift? where is the 'safe' range for the valve lift on 1.6 rockers? what do you think the 'safe' rev range with a 260 cam would be? i'm thinking 5k to 5.5k rpm, reason is cause I want to incorperate an electronic rev limiter.

chad- I'm going to go what I really want this bronco to be, a bloody mean 250 with an auto... I think the 33'+4.11 would be great with the c4, but I might be going 4r70w and have it 'tie' into the atomic setup...

 

[chad]

sounds great Rich, I'll enjoy as you develop it AND what it becomes! CB (or Jeff's, how ever U wanna say it) has some great info on the 4r70w (& 305/5.0. Not sure any 1 on there duz much w/a six - Y I'm over here mostly instead).
8^ )
BTW: saw a kid (20s) drive a '74 bronk from TX (I'm in "the 5 college area") into a driveway down the street from me. Said he & father put a 'stang efi 5 oh into it. He wasn't interested in any parts, takin it off rd (eventho it wuz 'twin sticked'), or any connections to the bronk network... :nono: Odd. I didn't take/give any contact info. Will drive by it 2 X daily to wrk... shame

 

[xctasy]

Look, lets be totally frank. I don't think anyone would argue that Americans aren't the best cam grinders in the world. I won't tell what cam to use, but have suggestions which you should take to Bullet cams or CI's Clay Smith.

A third option is that APT can, for 400 bucks, tell you which one of any line references you care to pick, what will work the best with your combo. They offer this based on a challenge I saw issued by them ten years ago. It went something like " give us any engine combo to the right detail, and we'll tell you which cam suits it best".

I'm very serious about that 30 thou lift duration figure based on Vizards work on the Pinto 2000 auto engine in the late 70's..there isn't an engine more tested or more suseptable to a cam choice than an Auto Pinto 2.0 with C4 auto and a 3.45:1 diff and a 350 or 500 cfm 2-bbl Holley 2-bbl carb. He gave an example of a Sig Erson 134 Cam and suggested lobe centre line for auto or manual, diff gearing, compression ratio to avoid detonation, the right cam timing to avoid Holley 2-bbl air reversion. EVERYTHING. Back in 1988 when the Ford SOHC modification book was written, Vizard and his APT buddy David Anton were leading lights on cam selection then, and still are today. There isn't a better source.If asked, they do branch out and help anyone willing to pay there reasonable rates to come up with the best cam choice. Bascially, for the price of a cam change, they will tell you which cam choice you would like to use will work best to suit your needs.

http://www.dimebank.com/monster/burst/00033.html
http://www.aptfast.com/ContactUs.aspx

I guess a 280 degree cam could just meet those requirements and still be streeatble with good off idle torque, but it would be tough to ensure the cam was degreed excatly right so the cold cranking compression was low enough.

I'll bet Clay Smith know exactly how far the cam relationship can be pushed with a CI headed 250. Chat to them and see.

by Broncitis » Sat Oct 13, 2012

MPG if you PM myself I will give you my phone # and help you as much as I can, I developed a cam with bullet cams for just what you seek, but decided tp go with a blower and sent the cam to a guy that both Mike and I thought was a friend, but not to be so, your first challenge will be an oil pan for the 250, there isn't one for the bronco with 250, you will have to make one out of two oil pans, personally I believe the 200 is plenty with an aluminum head, your biggest gain with 250 in 4 WD is clutch capacity unless you get a late 200, I had a special clutch developed by hr clutches for the 9.25 and have yet to tear it up, but it sounds like you want an auto anyways, if going offroad the np435 is hard to beat period for a crawl ratio and still a 1.1 for the highway, it shifts like a tank though, personally I would not worry about overdrive with either motor, because once my bronco was decked out, it weighed 4300 lbs with me in it. EZ efi is a dinosaur in easy efi, MSD ATOMIC and projection 111 are the easiest, Mike and I knew a guy that was making adapters for different cfm flow to put on the top of the pro 111 and I believe it to be the simplest by far, you might as well do mpfi with all the wiring with EZ efi. Plus on a 200 with flat tops and zero deck are just about right with the 56cc aluminum head.

 

[Broncitis]

If I may, on this cam talk and before I proceed, keep in mind that Mike is a good friend of mind, all the cams in his profile are for carbed engines and an efi cam is a totally different animal, I personally never buy an off the shelf cam, MPG with our pm conversation I can only assume you called bullet cams on the cam I helped develop with the 210/210, .500 lift and 110 L/S, it was designed with both worlds in mind with plenty of vacuum with no one world a premium, most efi cams run a 112 or higher L/S, but I went for a little more torque with the 110 l/s, the opening and closing events were all centered around efi which is also different than a carbed engine and we came up with .500 lift to maximize the aluminum head. On a 250 it will have all the vacuum you will ever need with a very smooth idle and the most bottom end I think can be had with yet going down the highway very well with around 4800 rpm tops, Short duration and high lift which the aluminum head will flow at means tons of torque down low.

 

[chad]

"...the AOD will help with fuel, and the 4.56 gears will help with off road..."

now "...but I might be going 4r70w..." is OK too

My comment is - the 33 inch tire & 250 may need the 4.56 or 4.88 - double check on that when gathering info as well. To me, there's alot more info to digest on the drive train ratios than U needed w/the 'stang (250/tranny/chunk/tire sz). I'd start w/tire sz and work backward cuz I'm 70% off rd.) 33X 9.50 will fit an 'uncut' w/the other mods I suggested.

[edit]
Some use the hydroboost outta the AstroVan, again CB has several write-ups AND threads.
(I got mechanical, but 4 discs [PS due to tire sz & rig's use] and do fine sno plowin, skiddin logs on hills/thru the swamp...

 

[MPGmustang]

Well it's been a while, settling down after the wedding and all... I haven't really worked on the bronco except fo cleaning it out a bit... instead we decided to build it differently.

I bought a donor 1975 bronco!!!


this has...
5inch suspension lift kit
2inch body lift
35inch tires!!! huge suckers!!!
dana 44 front axle with ford disk brakes (i think ford, not too sure) locker!!
big bearing 9 inch rear end with wild horses hardened axles (PO broke original axles so he put in HD ones) with detroit locker!!!
dana 20 j shift transfr case
c4 with shift kit (IMO it's just a tired stock c4, don't believe the shift kit)
90's mustang 5.0 HO roller v8 with TBI kit (kinda like my 200ci mustang)
full family roll cage
soft top
cowl hood
the rockers are cut off, PO started to put rock sliders on but never finished
onboard air tank and air.
all rust repaired, then was covered with rino type layer.... think i wanna re-weld some floor pans

so this is a great bronco, it HAS alot of what 'I' want. except something out there and not usuall... there is no inline 6.

Thanks right, the wife STILL wants the inline 6!!! I'm very excited about that. I've finally got a hold of the guy in NM and he still has the engine for sale, I'll be picking it up soon. then the fun begins.

Stage 1
roof repair, the 66 has a 77 roof that I will repair polish a little, dyna-mat, headlinder, and repaint with flat white (or spray piant glossy white) this will be the final rof choice.
prep 66 frame, this frame will be cleaned, Sand blasted, powder-coated, por-15'd, to be used as the initial frame. (gonna keep 66 title so why not frame)
rebuild my self the 250ci, disasemble, take block for deep cleaning, new-ish internals, cleaned crank, 260 custom cam, alum head with 1.6 rockers
prep stock c4 (will run 4.11 or 3.8 gears) with rebuild
2.5 inch suspension lit kit (5 inch is too tall!! lol) lots of flex and a soft ride
once this is done, then I'll tear apart the 75 bronco.
run brake/gas lines
23gallon AfterMarket gas tank
Classic Inlines headers, with y pipe for single exhaust

Stage 2 - 75 tear down
put down (casue it's so tall lol) on blocks
swap axles to new truck (use the 4.56 gears until ready)
use the 35 inch tires until I can get 33 mud boggers (no I'm not mudding, wife likes the look)
swap drive line components, like transfer case (will be rebuilt)
finish brakes, gas lines

Stage 3 - Body
prep body, this will mostly be cleaning it up, I'm honestly thinking of haveing it repaird, some area's of the weld places are not spot welded, but 'glued' like caulked to gether, but it's coming apart, so some repair is required.
body will then get dyna-mat (or equiv)
rewire with new harness, found a cheap harness for 150, many have loved it for it's 18 circut and extra long wires. all wires will be hid as best as I can, I want the engine bay to really promote the engine.
roll cage with get some padding
the AC kit then will come, this will be made custom (bc broncos kit) just for the early bronco... better than any other out there.
some extra lights for the front bumper
winch
rear bumper love (looks like it's falling off IMO, I don't like it ATM, but love the tire being on the bumper and not the truck)

stage 4
register 66 fram and 75 body as 66 bronco.
sell parts

This is a hefty project, and we want to finish it before next year summer. all the same time of working, school and honey do's... even though this truck is a honey do...

anyways, I really did like some of the other idea's of which axle to look for and such but this bronco was a great deal.


so I have a ways to go, I have thought this through of what I really want, got my rough outline and path I want to take. if there is anything I've learned with the mustang is that I need to do it right once, and not rush things. in the end, it won't look pretty, but it will always be dependable where ever we go.

things for people to know, classic car insurance doesn't like 4x4's, as they go off road. so I can't take it camping until it's finished with it's own insurance off classic car insurance. the reason I'm using classic car insurance is to by-pass the emissions law. 75 is emissions required and i'm sure it would pass but it's been cut at the cat's, and it's a $400 bill to add exhaust and mufflers. so for 119 a year I have insured the bronco with classic car insurance and it doesn't need emissions.

 

[thesameguy]

Whoa... that sounds like a helluva score! Nothing like someone's old project to save heaps of money... Is it a '75 Bronco or a shopping cart? Does it run at all?

 

[MPGmustang]

it really was a score, I flew out to Fresno CA to pick it up. and drive it home to Gilbert AZ... ... I was scared, but guy drove it daily and it's 17 miles one way to his work. so I gambled it should make it home.

what I didn't know is that it would only travel happily @ 55mph the whole way. but I made it eventually


the guy was selling it for 9k, but after a while I watched it as he was heading out to the militarty and didn't want a bronco to sit and not be used so he started to lower the price... to 8k, 7k, 6k... and I bought it for even less... so this patience was actually really good for me. I'm glad I got it. Now I just need to sell my mustang so I can START this project. my other question would be if I waited longer, would it have been cheaper or gone??

 

[thesameguy]

I just went through the same thing on another car, sold by a guy who was shipping out. I waited as the price got lower, and eventually thought it was a good deal and pulled the trigger. That same day, while posting a message to its respective forum asking a couple questions about the car I got a PM from a guy 1500 miles away saying "I was going to buy that car. Seller told me someone was coming out to look at it, and I was prepared to fly down tomorrow and pick it up. I guess you were the other guy!" I really scored on this purchase, as you did with yours.

 

[chad]

"if I waited longer, would it have been cheaper or gone??"
Glad U didn't.
We'll never know.

Good 2 C U back @ it !! Congrats on the 'hitch up' (& the vehicle purchase). Gettin hitched 2 her sure is great (U both R willing to put it into the vehicles (1 4 U, 1 4 the Queen, no?)

1) "...I've learned with the mustang is that I need to do it right once, and not rush things..."
esp. the research
/OR/
2) changing the end product 1/2 way thru.

2 me they really are the same thing. The result is a conglomeration of parts. Not true to any final application. As U know this is already the issue w/a multipurpose vehicle like a bronk (or a ranchero - now a round body would look good nxt to my bronk, be more 4 the hwy...). Already goin in several directions so U really need 2 B CERTAIN WHAT U WANt outta (sorry 4 the caps - FFS - fat finger syndrome) the project.

Hummm, who am I to give advice? (I aint so 'big', experienced, pro...). BUT I learned this last piece from my friends right here.

 

[MPGmustang]

well, just starting to collect my thoughts, school has most of my brain, but wanted to update nonetheless...

mustang still not sold, so no ability to get things rolling on the bronco... the DS2 is getting re-curved.

we have decided to go 66 bronco... the 66 frame is in better condition, and I won't need emissions when done... hate that step. I will use most of the 75 body as a donor, the dash is better from the 66.

I really DON't like the 5inch lift, nor do I like think the 2.5inch lift will be low enough for me. I really want to try stock with 2inch body lift and 33 tires with cut body... as it's already cut.

the garage isn't ready for the bronco, not that it could fit even if it was... still getting the house situated...

the final project I think is going to be wicked.. I'm fully stoked, just now understanding how projects get pushed onto the back burner with a wife around. but gosh I love her.

 

[xctasy]

The worlds first SUV is the right basket to put your eggs in. I have seen what you've done via the GM TBI, so I don't doubt you'll prevail on the blended 66/75 EB.

Let it be known that in the I6 world, the best combination cars and parts don't sell fast at a garage sale level... remember FalconSedanDelivery's world class 220 hp 250 from just a few Ford and holley carbs, it didn't sell. The other T code 200 cube cars here, they did sell eventually, but you just have to keep up with the hard sell.

One thing I'll say, your engineering ability will be shown as being very advanced, your AFI 2-bbl Chevy TBi set up is a very 258/Turbo City Jeep type system that Tom Miller pioneered, and now FAST are doing doing with their EZ EFI. You are a pioneer, and have done the background research. Your contribution to FordSix has been huge.

 

[chad]

"...worlds first SUV..."
I almost bought the IH800 (pre scout) back in the day. IH wuz just goin outta bizness. I said "The law is they gotta make parts 4 seven yrs after" so decided on the bronk. So got the '70 in '83. I'd say the 'Scout' wuz 1st, but wadda I know. Sure like mine. It's paid it's way (it's a 'wrk truck') and saved my a** several times.

Good 2 C U postin bout it again...I'm interested in what U come up with, Rich. Not sure Y U picked the Atomic over the other efis. Have yet to put the 250 in mine.

 

[MPGmustang]

update

almost done getting the mustang back together... then to drive and try to sell it that way.

I have ordered my alum head for the bronco should be picking it up soon (ish), I'm commited to seeing this through, guy in new mexico with the bronco'd 250 is waiting for me to pick it up in 3 weeks may 11th (way excited!!) as it has all the pulley's and accesories I want except missing the AC... but that's easy.

in 4 weeks (ish) I start the tear down of the 66, going to the frame on this one, gonna get my i6 motor mounts back on, move the radius arm attachment (75 has extended radius arms I want to use), and then send it off to sand blast. we are using most of our curent suspension and drive train, except a lower lift... 5.5 is too tall, so either stock or 2.5 inch lift... probably 2.5 with sway bars.

so the final count down on starting is soon!!! hopefully the mustang will sell and the wife will stop worring.

 

[Gene Fiore]

update

almost done getting the mustang back together... then to drive and try to sell it that way.

I have ordered my alum head for the bronco should be picking it up soon (ish), I'm commited to seeing this through, guy in new mexico with the bronco'd 250 is waiting for me to pick it up in 3 weeks may 11th (way excited!!) as it has all the pulley's and accesories I want except missing the AC... but that's easy.

in 4 weeks (ish) I start the tear down of the 66, going to the frame on this one, gonna get my i6 motor mounts back on, move the radius arm attachment (75 has extended radius arms I want to use), and then send it off to sand blast. we are using most of our curent suspension and drive train, except a lower lift... 5.5 is too tall, so either stock or 2.5 inch lift... probably 2.5 with sway bars.

so the final count down on starting is soon!!! hopefully the mustang will sell and the wife will stop worring.

Sounds like you are making great progress!!!