Cam for streetable 250 with aluminum head?

62Ranchero200

Famous Member
Greetings Ford Six Fans,

I'm building a 250 with an aluminum head. I don't have every detail yet, but I plan near zero deck height, 9.3:1 compression (93 octane super unleaded, no racing gas), ARP rod bolts, ARP main and head studs, static and dynamic balance, headers, CI intake manifold, DUI, etc. Will have C4 with ~2,000 RPM stall speed converter.

Have the Clay Smith 264/264/110H cam that came out of my 200 - it only has a few hundred miles on it. In the 200, it produced fairly low vacuum (maybe 11 inches at idle) and a rough idle. It occasionally died at stop lights.

Don't mind a LOPEY idle, but I don't want the 250 to die at stop lights, and I'd prefer that it have a bit more vacuum at idle. I understand that any given cam will "act like" "less cam" with the extra 50 cubic inches of the 250, but I don't know how the aluminum head affects this relationship. Can the 250 with the aluminum head benefit from more cam, and still generate decent vacuum, without dying at stop lights?

Thank You,
Bob the Builder
 
Long as you're willing to eat 93 Octane... , I think a 264 cam is a little light for your carefullly prepped setup. I run a Clifford 272H Cam in a street/strip 250. Its a tri-power carb setup with a T5 and 3.80 rear gears. It idles well at @ 900 with good vac ( original '61 wipers 8) ) and runs well through 5K. Great power through gears with T5 OD cruise @ 70mph@2500 works for me.
 
powerband":qmnivr53 said:
Long as you're willing to eat 93 Octane... , I think a 264 cam is a little light for your carefullly prepped setup. I run a Clifford 272H Cam in a street/strip 250. Its a tri-power carb setup with a T5 and 3.80 rear gears. It idles well at @ 900 with good vac ( original '61 wipers 8) ) and runs well through 5K. Great power through gears with T5 OD cruise @ 70mph@2500 works for me.

Does the 272 duration cam require anything exotic as far as valvetrain? I'd like to stick with single valve springs with dampers to keep the cost reasonable. Still considering my rocker assembly options, but probably won't spring for the full roller rockers, again to keep the cost reasonable.

Your idle speed and vacuum sound great to me. If you can run the original wipers, your vacuum must be excellent.

Thanks
Bob
 
I agree with powerband...that cam is too tame for the 250 IMHO. My 250 has the Clay Smith 278/110 solid lifter cam with the log head and I have about 15 to 16 inches of vacuum idling in park and it idles pretty smooth...not much of a lope at all. If you don't want to go solid lifter then the Clay Smith 274/110 might be a better choice for you.

I do have a question about your build. How are you going to achieve 9.3 to 1 static compression with a nearly zero deck? Assuming 56cc combustion chamber size and .050 compressed thickness Felpro head gasket you would be looking at about 9.7 to 1 if you use pistons with the larger 13cc dish. Better make sure of your math before you commit to any parts. I am running the 255 v-8 piston which have a higher pin height so it in effect pushes the piston up higher in the bore. Even with that my deck height is .027 and with a 57cc combustion chamber I have right around 10.5 to 1 ( the pistons only have a 1.5cc valve relief in them ). Good luck with your build!
 
Gene Fiore":8tv031w3 said:
I agree with powerband...that cam is too tame for the 250 IMHO. My 250 has the Clay Smith 278/110 solid lifter cam with the log head and I have about 15 to 16 inches of vacuum idling in park and it idles pretty smooth...not much of a lope at all. If you don't want to go solid lifter then the Clay Smith 274/110 might be a better choice for you.

I do have a question about your build. How are you going to achieve 9.3 to 1 static compression with a nearly zero deck? Assuming 56cc combustion chamber size and .050 compressed thickness Felpro head gasket you would be looking at about 9.7 to 1 if you use pistons with the larger 13cc dish. Better make sure of your math before you commit to any parts. I am running the 255 v-8 piston which have a higher pin height so it in effect pushes the piston up higher in the bore. Even with that my deck height is .027 and with a 57cc combustion chamber I have right around 10.5 to 1 ( the pistons only have a 1.5cc valve relief in them ). Good luck with your build!

The pistons I plan to use have a very deep, large volume dish (21 cc) that helps bring the CR back down to streetable levels.

Once the final decision is made regarding piston selection, I'll post an update.

Thank you,
Bob
 
I went with the 264/274/112 lobe center, but that's in a 200. Vacuum is still pretty low in my setup. Lopey idle.
It was recommended by Mike for automatic transmissions.
It is also recommended to advance the cam to bring the powerband down, mine is at +2°.
How can you do this with a 250?
I have 3.08 gears, and just puttering around town is not great.
But I built this one to run on the highway so it spends most of it's time between 3000 and 3500 rpms, which is where this cam just starts to wind up real nice.
 
This has been discussed at length before. Very good to discuss and debate the details, you will find the answers before you spend money with the advice from people here.

I'm very serious about the 30 thou lift duration figure, it governs how much overall cam duration your combination can handle, and still idle. Port injection engines are more governed by cam window area, to fit in with maximum piston speed and the cam timing needs to phase in with that. For non independent runner, 2 or 4-bbl cars and CFI systems where there isn't one port per piston, you can get away with a lot more.

The 200 vs 250 is the most different combination. Despite the fact that 240's and 300's, 200 and 250's, 302C's and 351C's in there base application used the same cam on the small version compared to the bigger, the 200/250 engines with different heads should not be considered similar in any way. One good thing is that the same cams were used on different headed 200 and 250's all over the world, and a factory 256 cam works fine on any kind of 250 engine, iron, log, 2v, x-flow or Classic Inlines.

The 1985-1987 162 to 164 hp XF Falcon ran a special upgraded cam because people complianed that the stock 82 to 84 149 HP EFI engine was so tame. The last 85 to 87 EFI cam spec copes with early 2v heads and there huge 1.65" ports just fine, so a stock Aussie EFI 264 cam grind on a non crossflow camshaft balank would be a good start with a CI head and 250 engine combination.

events 24, 60 exhast, then 60 exhast, 24 intake
advertised duration
IVO 24
IVC 60
EVO 60
EVC 24
LSA 109

Duration at lash for hydralic cam 264/264,
50 thou 196 in /196 ex
total lift at valve with 1.73:1 rockers was .439"/.439"

On the small 1.33" port head, power from 900-3400rpm on an EFI port injected engine

The Clay Smith 264 is much more agressive than this, the most aggressive for 50 thou duration you can buy, and since it copes nicely with any 200 or 250 log head, it would be my best first option for a 250 CI headed engine.

The 300 carb or efi cam grind would be good as a perfect minimum starter cam, too

Advertised Duration
IVO 18
IVC 70
EVO 58
EVC 30
LSA 110
stock 300 cam is around .400 lift and 192 duration @ .050


In general, the rule is that as you become increasing under square and your capacity increasses by stroking the engine, you normally just run a more radical cam, and you can expand the LSA. The problem is that the CI head is a big port, high flow head, and even with a 250 cube engine, it doesn't like big cams when you use stock converters in an auto application. If its manual, you can get away with much more duration. When Ford designs a cam, it often makes a single grind which suits auto and manual, and then customises the converter if the cam is used ibehind an auto. This was what they did in the 351 C 4V HO dayS, and again in 1983 with the 5.0 HO engine. With certainty, Ford always ensures its engine cam combination suits the clylinder head flows. So its very like comparing a Cleveland 351 to a Windsor 351, or a Boss 302 to a Windsor 302. The bigger flow and port area head always kills low end torque when the same cam is used with a smaller flow rate, smaller port and intale runner head. In the killer HO Mustang engine options of 1969 to 1973, and again in 1983 to 1985, Ford ensured the manual and auto engines got very specific camshafts to suit the heads.

A 250 2-bbl log head with 278 solid lifter cam will idle much nicer than one would imagine, but a 250 with CI head and 2-bbl and even a 264 cam might idle with more chop than the 278 cam. It all depends on what stall ratio, power options and restrictions you have on common use. The Holley 2-bbl carb is very influenced by high intensity camshafts when intake runners are big and low lift cfms are high like they are with the CI head. Old 2V heads on 250 engines tended to have problems with 500 cfm carbs and higher than stock 256 degree cams. The problem is that its very easy to over cook the 30 and 50 thou durations, and if the lobe separtion is too great, the car won't idle properly. Cam designers know just how much you can push the friendship.

The 250 has a long stroke design, a very short length of rod to stroke ratio, and the CI head has a large port area. A cam that works on a 1-bbl log headed manual, non power steered 200 wont suit a 2-BBL ci headed auto with power steering.

Converter stall ratio, carburation, engine capacity, a/c, p/s, brake booster, diff ratio, effective compression of combo before mods verses effective compression with the cam retarted or advanced on the crank of a 250, everything influences evertything else. Intake runner volume, and if the the engine is running port on port or a large intake volume influneces maximim duration.

See again viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68948&p=528890#p528890
 
everything influences evertything else

Yes indeed-e-do!
I just luv systemic thinking (but only got it in biological systems!)...
:( :help:
 
With 80# seat valve spring pressure the 264 cam is a nice street cam.
However if you want a more agressive camshaft 120#-130# seat pressure is the norm.
If you run a stock converter i recommend a 112 l/c.
Since you plan to run a low compression engine 9.5 area i would run a shorter camshaft.
If you want to step up to a 10.5 compression with cranking compression in the 185#-195# area pick a camshaft with 265I @ 280E 0r @ .050" .224"I-.234"E with 114 l/c with auto trans or 112 l/c with a stick shift.
This camshaft will be a solid lifter grind which will require 130#seat pressure .500" lift with 325# open pressure.
If you go this route i would get the solid lifters with a .005" bleed orifice to help in lifter to lobe oiling.
Sounds like you want a mild engine so the 264 camshaft would be a good choice. 112 l/c
 
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