Cams and EFI

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Anonymous

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Not sure where to put this one, so I'll leave it here until a moderator moves it. :)

Thinking toward to future- how much more cam can you get away with if you're running an EFI set-up?

I know too much cam can rob low end, but is that because too much air/fuel is going in via the carb? Will better fuel management from EFI help restore some of the lost low end?

Just thinking out loud. I may be getting a free 200 core, so I might have an extra engine to play with before long. May as well build it to perform. Wonder if my sweetie will mind an engine stand in the living room... :)


--mikey
 
My opinions from a very comprehensive search of Australian SAE automotive papers and as many new car tech articles as I can digest. Well, there were new when I got them as a kid from Wheels, Street Machine, Motor, Autocar, Fast Lane, Car, Road and Track, Motor Trend, CarCraft, Hot-Rod, Popular Mechanics. Some of these date back to 1979, others are recent.

EFI will handle any cam. There are varoius types. Technically, asside form Varicam BMW's, there is no kind of gasoline injection system bar the throttle body type. The throttle body must exist somewhere to allow air control. It doesn't mater if its three feet before the intake, or 3" before the intake, there must be a metering device to make it work. The placing of the injector is important. Indirect Port injection isn't the bees knees for power. Some cars with injectors 6 inches away from the intake valves, piddling on to the back of the thottle blades, can rout a good port injection system at various points in the rev range. Direct injection systems require very specific design, and is not open to any changes bar specific machined alterations. It's essentially you-toucha-my-car-I braka-your -face-deal


Throttle Body EFI. Called, in the trade, pi$$'n'dribble. Single, dual or (almost) port injected. The basic type is the CFI units found in 1981 till 1985 302's. The TBI systems in Chevs, singles like in the 2.5 Iron Dukes and dual TBI, such as the 82/84 Cross-Fire 'vettes. The final incarnation is the indepedant runner systems like TWM's Weber DCOE version, which is used on SB and BB V8's with independant runners to the ports. These systems are TBI, but work with very short injector to valve distances. They are like the 427 and 289 GT40 Weber carb set-ups.

If the right type of multiple Throttle body injector, such as three from a CFI Taurus, is used, it can do a brilliant job. The Megasquirt guys have started doing a few on these on there site using Aussie Falcon EA 3.9 CFI injectors. One 460 runs just two on a Weber DCOE intake. As soon as you move away from an indepandant runner system, things get worse and worse. Last on the list is a single TBI unit. It has rotten fuel atomisation characterisitics, and works well only because an EFI system is easier to certify than a feedback carb because it can compensate for air temerature and fuel air ratio trim much better.

The method of metering the fuel is genrally by look-up table from a defined list of Manifold Absolute Vaccum values. The engine is dyno tuned or run on the road with a data logger or, on more basic systems, just with a rich or lean lambda display. You tune it at a given temperature, and then define the envelope you operate to. It may be a fuel only sysyem, or a fuel and ignition system. There is no manifold air flow meter or hot film potentiometer, or Karmen Vortex sensor to make things akward.

The port injection is a much better option for most of us, as you can get.

Here, There are many metering devices critical to emissions . Devices such as the

Manifold Absolute Pressure or
Manifold Air Flow meter or
Hot Film Potentiometer or
Karmen Vortex Sensor or
The Bosch L, LE, or LEII Air Vane Meter

These five systems are what you find on any Bosch K, J, L, D or EEC or Calpak/ Memcal or OBDI or OBDII system.

They are wounderfull set-ups, which have been engineered to a high degree of aptitdue by world class experts. Anything you can do your self will add kaos to order, unless you get a special assistance. Some kits, like the GM Calpak/ Memcal , are so friendly, you can just about do anything. Others, like the Ford EEC system, are very easy to damage unless you have a 25 year IBM veteran to help you out. Things are much easier with Intercetor or Extreme Edge interface kits, but the EEC's are much more nasty because when eggs like Chuck Missler and co designed the electronics in the late 70's, they added a raft of computer structures to create sequential injection options. Very complicated binary codes, not as simple as the GM stuff.

The status of bankfire or sequential firing is irrelevant, except in relation to engine start time. Sequential injection systems often start quicker, but the sequential systems are harder to calibrate than the bank fire set-ups. Both operates by pulse length, but the sequential has a timed event which varies a great deal. The GM Bankfire set-ups are really nice to tune, and they are not as fussy over cam timing. On a V8, one bank has one pulse length, like a big 4-choke carb on one side, then it fires the other bank with a similar pulse even timed at a different interval.

Some sequential systesm, like the pre OHC X-flow 4.1, have nasty vane meters and are not easy to work on unless you ditch the air vane and go for a more modern MAP or Hot Film Potentiometer.

My pick? The MAP set-up is the ideal one to have, as it has no close restrictions upstream. It can be a beggar to calibrate, as manifold temperature and flow can mean there is no limp-home if it fails. There may be other issues.

The thing I like is that you can do away with any downstream throttle blades on a six cylinder in-line engine, and use the 5.0 V8 throttle body to meter flow. This allows total freedom in intake design. In theory, a Hillborne injection system could be gutted of its throttle slides, and a big perspex or glass cover placed the intake trumbets. These could then be linked to one or two big throttle bodies, and the MAP sensor linked up to the manifold. You then have freedom to place the injectors in the right place, it'll look great, and the system can then be calibrated to bank fire or sequential.

Hope this helps. No opplogies for the loose terminology. Better scholars are around to sort out the tree-branch diagram or EFI systems. Those that are able to explain it better are not interested in the big picture. Those that are into the big picture, are not experts...
 
EFI only has a big problem with a MAP sensor on big cams that don't generate much vacuum at idle. In a case like that, you need to revert to a TPS/RPM fueling strategy. Even with MAF systems, you may not get reliable readings in a Big Cam/Big MAF setup.

But in general, an EFI system can be much better behaved with bigger cams because you don't have a problem with fuel distribution or dropout. All the cylinders are getting fuel fairly evenly and airflow is much easier to manage when there is no fuel in suspension.
 
Want to see a vacume gauge dance? Hook one to a harley big twin. With only two holes and not fireing 180 degrees apart, it is something to see.
Map sensor would be about useless on one of those.
 
Mgasquirt has a Harley and a Ducati Paso running their systems. Theu generally use a damped accumulator (from the sound of it, they use an old fuel filter with a MIG tip in the feed line).

Any problem that can be defined can be solved
 
Still mulling over which controller to use- MegaSquirt, SDS, or some similar flavor. Have a friend working at Injection Logic, so I'm looking at their system, too. He's got 260Z he's setting up, so it'll be similar to what I'm doing. No clue on $$$ yet.

I'm planning to to a roll-yer-own on the mechanical side- fab my own plenum, runners, etc. Can anyone recommend a good book that covers proper plenum design, runner length, etc.?

There's some wisdom in Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost" as well as on the SDS site. Just looking for more.

thanks for the input to date

--mikey
 
Oops- one other thing regarding vacuum & MAP sensors. I'm considering on of AzCoupe's 268 grinds- possibly the 108* lobe center cam (if I can make it idle well with EFI) or else the 110* lobe center cam. The info lists one of them as having "adequate" vacuum. I'm assuming that's based on the needs of a carb. Will this give a MAP sensor fits, or will it be okay?

And- will the EFI be able to smooth out the rough idling 108* cam to some degree? Inutition says it could, but assumption is the mother of all something er others....

Probably should direct these at AzCoupe, but I'll take all the informed opinions I can get. :)

Thanks

--mikey
 
8) healthy street cams are no problem for most efi systems, as long as there is some adjustability built into them, or you can add a tuner chip. in point of fact ford developed the EEC lV system on formula one and cart/usac cars. but as sophisticated as modern electronics are, they do have limitations. while a 108 or even a 106 lobe center is no problem for the right software, going further than that does strain the limits of the sensors, and the tuners capabilities.
 
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