Carby Debate

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Hey,

From reading many posts, I have found that the majority of you believe in the holley 500cfm 2 barrel as the best choice for the 250 crossflows. But to me a 390cfm 4 barrel is a much better choice, as it surely would be more efficient and has the added bonus of vacuum secondaries (i'm not sure if the 500 has vacuum secondaries). What are all your thoughts out there?

Thanks
 
Cam, you are correct. A 390 cfm carb is a better choice than a 500 cfm 2-bbl period. But Circumstances alter cases.....

390 PROS:-
A 500 is really a 354 cfm carb, and flows less air than a 390 cfm carb. So a 500's its potentialhp is less than a 390.

1.To set up a 390, you need the right intake manifold. The US guys with there mighty 300's and 240's have it all over us Aunzies here. A vast array of manifolds exist there.

2.It's jetted lean for about 150 hp. A good cross-flow 4.1/250 will need a lot more than that as the stock carb restricts it so much. 390 4-bbls are jetted leaner than most 500 2-bls.

3.The other issue is the emmissions. In the US, a 390 is easier to get past a sniffer test because they come with proper evaporative emissions and reverse idle jetting. Some replacements have fine jetting which allows a new carb to be set up to pass the CO and HC emmisions very easily. Holley has listed the 390 cfm as a emissions carb upgrade. It's technically illegal though. The rule is, if it didn't come out with a 4-bbl, its not legal, as it has no Executive Order or California Air Resources Board sticker. Most emmissions Nazis are happy to pass one if it doesn't fail the visual inspection, though.

4.Additionally, the 390 has a 195 cfm primary which is much smaller than the 354 cfm a 500 Holley really puts out. So it can lean cruise much better, and still out perform a 500 if its set up correct.

5.Upshot of all this is balanceing off the space verses performance verses economy. If gas mileage is king, get a 390. If performance is king, get the 390, and jet it up more. If space is at a premium, get a 500.


6.If the Ford motor company decided (in the past) to build hot six cylinder cars, then they would have gone for there Autolite 4-bbl carb with an alloy intake much like the cross-flow Ultraflow manifold, and used a carb more like the 390 cfm. But then, who would buy a 2-bbl 302 if there was a 4-bbl 250 or 300 lurking around? It would have canned it!

500 PRO'S:-
1. A 2-bbl is easier to set up for an Aussie cross-flow. There's not much space between the spring towers for XD to XF Falcon, less in the XA-XC's, and less again on the XR to XY's. And none at all in an XK to XP. So a 390 wont fit a 250 /4.1 easy. Nor a 250 log. This is not an issue with a 300 in a f150 truck.

2. The set-up of the secondaries, and jetting is a little harder with the 390 verses the #2300 series 500.

3. Guite a few 500 cfm carbs are set up for 327 to 400 cube V8's with 180 hp capabilities. A 2-bbl will always work better right out of the box.

4. A 500 2-bbl is not an emmissions carb, and has been designed as a pre US 1973 era '49 states' carb. That means in areas not subject to annual visual or sniffer inspections can use it. In California, a 500 is an off road carb only.

5. The legal use of the 500 cfm carb on emmission era cars is an issue for the US, not Aussie because most of your inspections deal with whether or not the original emmisions stuff is on the car.

6.The 500 (#2300) is also just a simultaneous opening carb, with both throttles locked together. It is easier to set up.
 
I had always heard that 1bbl , 2bbl and 4bbl carbs and throttle bodies were rated differently as far as cfm is concerned. I'v glad someone has finaly explained it. BTW is there a formula so it can be calculated? And does any one know how much a carter yf 1bbl on a 300 flow?
Jim
 
Yeah. Take the flow drop they use, and then divide it by the square root of the algebraic difference. The industry standard is 1.5"Hg (mercury) pressure drop from the top of the carb to the bottom. A carb won't flow air unless there is a pressure difference from the top to bottom.

Eg 500 cfm 2-bbl is at 3.0" Hg (mercury) pressure drop from the top of the carb to the bottom. 4-bbls are rated at 1.5"Hg.

3.0/1.5= 2. Take the sqaure root of this, and you get 1.414. Divide 500 by 1.414 , and you get 354 cfm.

A 350 2-bbl carb is 248 cfm using this method.
 
I noted a while back that a lot of issues with poor off-idle mixture is Power Valve Channel Restriction related.

Holley has spent millions on sorting out these sizes for all there carbs. They vary a good deal from carb to carb, and Holley have obviously decided to keep this to themselves since there are so many adjustable circuits elseware to cope with the fuel/air mix. This is why Holley have recommended listings and after sales advise, I guess.

On fours with the Holley 2-bbl #2300, the PVCR must be reduced to about 16 to 17 thou, quite a reduction on what a 400 V8 needs. I understand that the 390 in its latter incarnations is a primarily a 2300 cc carb, and is sized lean in the channel restrictions to produce great mileage.

I am of the opinion that most guys here running the 390 on 300's tend to jet it up, and control idle by phasing the secondaries to open slightly, and change the squirter jets to produce a rich spike to overcome the leaness.

if you can get a set of brass restirctor jets made up, PVCR sizes are actually really easy methods of getting proper fuel/air mix alterations for smaller engines. The issue is that no data I've seen exists on the existing channel sizes for a givin carb combo, you can't just read off an inventory listing like you can jets, secondary springs and power valves. Dave Emanuel said years ago that so long as you maintained unity with known combinations, you could tailor the PVCR sizes to match.

This is kind off funny, as I can get the cc/min flow from any Holley or Holley Weber jet size, but I don't even know what a stock 600 Vac Sec or 390 cfm vac sec runs in the power valve channel restrictions.

The point over PVCR is that two engines producing say, 170 hp with a similar carb need very different idle and off idle fuel air mixes, even though the overall jetting at wide open throttle will be parctically the same.

I'd dearly love to know how much extra PVCR a 300 I6 running a 390 4-bbl with 18" of idle vaccum would run over a similarly carbed 140 cube Lima OHC with only 14" of idle vaccum. I'd say a 300 I6 would need a larger PVCR than a similar sized 302 V8.
 
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