Cfm size

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
  • Start date Start date
A

Anonymous

Guest
What is a good rule of thumb to place a cfm size on motorcycle carbs that are described in venturi dia or size? Pondering if any are suitable on multi-carb intake for IL6! A setup with side draft carbs would be interesting as a design exersise.
Gene
 
For an idepedent runner system like Jack Collins had on his 200 Locost 7, the numbers are not Cfm because a flow bench figure is so far out from the normal use.


Example.

Mikuni RS 40, 38, 36, 34 carbs can individually run 250 cfm, 225 cfm, 200 cfm, 180 cfm at 1.5" Hg flow pressure. These carbs run 40, 38 36 or 34 mm venuris. Four GSX 1100 Mikiuni RS38 Carbs may flow 1000 cubic feet per minute of air at 1.5" Hg.

However, at even 9000 rpm, a 67 cubic inch engine only needs 175 cfm of air flow to give 130 horsepower.

In practice, the flow pressure at maximum revs is virtually zero inches of Mercury.


Example two.

On Jacks Locost. There could be 225 hp to be had with six RS 38 carbs. To get 225 hp with a 200 cube engine, you need 325 cfm of air flow at 5500 rpm. Six carbs flow 1350 cfm at 1.5" Hg, but only draw on 54 cfm per cylinder, or less than 0.4" Hg at a wide open throttle.

The rule for idependent runner are four times the air flow of the normal carby size formula

Non Port on Port, not independent runner systems at the industry standard 1.5" hg or 20.3" H20 flow rate:-

CFM needed is Cubic inch displacement* rpm ant maximum power.
_________________3456*volumetric efficency as a decimal

For port on port systems, the figures run at 4 to 5 times this figure!


Easest system is the one pinoeered by Weber in the early 40's. It asks you for the rev range at which you want to see maximum power, and the capacity in cubic centimeters for each cylinder, and then it gives you the ideal venturi size.

DV_Carb_Sizing_II.jpg


It is THE ONLY WAY to work out which carb is best. It's stood the test of time, and the EFI brigade are way behind on the best independent runner systems.
 
How about max rpm X cu.in. / 3456?

That's what I use as a rough "guesstimate"

EG, 5000rpm X 300 cubes divided by 3456 = 434.027 cfm
This is at 100% vol efficiency (not likely)
So take the answer you get (434) and X .85 for a street engine or .95 for a race engine (85% or 95% efficiency) and you get;
369cfm and 412cfm.

A lot less than you would think eh? :wink:
No your 302 on the street doesn't need a 1050 dominator because it has
a set of headers now! :lol:
 
The topic somehow got off track! Just consider this... How many CFM's do you think a 38mm carb would flow or a 40mm carb. Would they flow 100CFM or would either or both flow less" What would a 28mm flow?
I really only want an estimation of cfm flow for a given carb that is described in mm size rather than in cfm flow.
Thanks, Gene
 
Okey doke!

Flow Rate (CFM) is Velocity times Area

Q=v.a

But Q is related to pressure as well.

Flow Pressure= density*gravity*height. And there is more crud to deal with too.

The circumstance alters the CFM. An engine sucks less air if it has more venturis of carbs to suck through. Air flow is pressure based.

This stuff defines the answer as clearly as I can.

Stock Offy three carb will produce about 150 hp without much help. The CFM per carb depedns on

a) rpm at max power

b) the amount of carbs and venturi size.

Lets look at a hypothetical 200 log head engine, reving to 4600 rpm, with 75% volumetric efficiency no matter what carb you run

One 38 mm carb on a 200 will pull 1.5 to 3.0"Hg, and may flow 200 cfm at 1.5"Hg.

Two 38 mm carbs on a 250 will pull 1.06"Hg to 2.12"Hg, for 100 cfm per carb.

Three 38 mm carbs on a 250 will pull 0.866"Hg to 1.73"Hg, for about 67 cfm per carb.

Six 38 mm carbs on a 250 will pull 0.62"Hg to 1.22"Hg, for about 33 cfm per carb.

See what's happening? For each extra carb, you loose suction, and that happens in a decay curve with each carb added.

I'll repeat what I said before. Six 38 mm carbs on a 200 cid engine has 545 cc per cylinder. The maximum rpm band for ideal performance is 6000 rpm, but at 4600 rpm, it'll need 33 mm chokes.

If you run three carbs, then the chart above won't work.

You can spend hours and hours arguing air flow figures if the inches of mercury pressure the engine flows differs. There is so much utter bovine scattology sorounding air flow becasue people are ingnorant of the simple facts that have been in existance since the first living creater breathed air however many years ago.

WRC race cures run 35 mm restrictor plates to limit boost presure and therefore power.
F1 bikes run 25 mm restrictor plates to reduce power.
The F1 3000 cc race cars run restrictor plates.
NASCARS run restrictive 390 cfm throttle bodies to limit power.

Each of the power figures cna be related to air speed in feet per second, CFM flow, and pressure, and then you can argue over more facts until horse.

Best wishes,

Deano
 
Thanks Deano for all the tutoring, I truly need it. Your conclusions of flow of multible carbs are based on a log type manifold. Although i am more interested in individual direct carb to cylinder connections it is very informative.
Most auto carbs in the USA are listed and sold by maximum CFM ability of the carb, and are selected by that criteria. A formula for determining CFM requirements for a given displacement at desired RPM are used to select the size that is required for at least the minimum size needed.
There must be a formula to ascertain the maximum flow in CFM for a given MM size venturi. I know that design differs among carbs and two carbs of the same venturi size can flow differently. Why aren't the CFM capability of those carbs ever stated?
Do constant velocity carbs flow more than another with the same venturi size? Do the slide type carbs flow more for a given size?
I have rebuilt carbs on everything from riding mower, weedwhackers, motorcycles and autos successfully without really trying to understand them more fully. I certainly don't mean to be a bother but your knowledge of the subject sure puts a light on a few things and is appreciated.
Gene
 
No worries mate, I get it now!

Before I start, I'll say that if you are contemplating a non independent runner system, then use the non independent runner formulae from this link. http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50275&highlight=#50275



Meantime, please work through each example. I guess that example 5 sums it up best.

All 2-bbls are rated at 3"Hg

Most 4-bbls are rated at 1.5"Hg

Example 1:

The 2-bbl Weber 32/36DGAS and Holley Weber 5200 are 227 cfm at 1.5"Hg.

To convert between a standard pressure drop to another kind, just take the standard pressure, divide by the new one, take the square root, and you get a factor.

If 227 cfm at 1.5"Hg is to be conveted to 3"Hg, then 3.0/1.5=2, and root 2 of 2 is 1.414.

Take 227 cfm, multiply by 1.414 to get 321 cfm.

Same with Holley 350 and 500 2-bbls. They are rated at 3"Hg, but are 247 and 354 cfm at 1.5"Hg.

Example 2:

Now, lets say we have one 514 cubic inch independent runner tunnel rammed ProStreeter running to 9000 rpm. By Holleys formualae, with 105% volumetric efficiency, you'd need a single 1405 cfm carb. In fact, people use two Holley Dominator 1150 cfm at 1.5"Hg carbs, or four cut-up 1150 cfm carbs. As soon as you run independent runner systems, the volumetric efficiency goes up, and the peak vaccum goes down, way down. On a 514, each cylinder has 1052 ccs to suck, and from the chart above, it needs eight 2.0" or bigger venturis in a savagely bored out Dominator carb. The peak flow is off the scale at 1.5"Hg would be about 1400 cfm per each carb.

Example 3:

One Weber 48IDA with 42 mm venturis flows 296 cfm per barrel at 1.5"Hg. Three of them flow 1776 cfm. A GT40 289 had four, and flowed 2300 cfm or so at 1.5"Hg.

Example 4:

As you add carbs, you improve volumetric efficency. A stock 4-bbl carb in a V8 will gain about 5% VE if an independent runner carb system is added, and up to 25% power if the cam is optimised to suit the venturi diameter for a specfic rev range. It's nothing to get 10 to 25% more power out of downdraft IDA or IDF Webers, and they exceed the best power of an efi or Hilbourn type system because they pulse tune fuel. Maserati, Aston Martin, Ferrari and Lamborghini have done it for years. 375 hp from a 2 vave per cylinder head from 3.9 liters, and a specific torque of about 1.2 lb-ft per cubic inch of engine, which is very impressive. The record is about 1.4 lb-ft per cube, I think.

Example 5:

On your six, going from one venturi to to six veturis improves volumetric efficiency by about 20%. The flow efficiency from the stock 1-bbl to the outer No1 and 6 cylinders is very, very bad because of the sharp bends. It's rare for any single barrel American origin log type manifold from AMC, Kaiser, Hudson, Ford or GM to have a flow handicap of less than15% on the outer cylinders. The air/fuel ratio which gives 12:1 for cylinders 3 and 4 gives 13.5 to 14:1 for the outer cylinders. If you have more carbs, you have less bends. If you go to 6 carbs, the VE can in theory go up to as good as an engine with no manifold. In most cases, and intake manifold is a 10 to 25% flow handicap to an internal combustuion engine.

On the Log head, six venturis is the best single alteration as there is a flow distribution problem with one carb feeding six cylinders.


If you run three 1-bbl carbs, the set-up is worse than an indepednent runner/port on port system, but a massive improvement on the stock 1-bbl system. This is why the Offy style intakes get great results for little cash outlay.

The ideal carb CFM at 3.0" Hg for three carbs on a 200 engine running to 5000 rpm?

Well, the engine will have an 85% VE rather than 75% when you do the cam to suit. The head flows better with three points of distribution verses one. Total air flow is

200*5000
3456*0.85

= 340cfm. This is spread over three carbs.

There is a now a calculation you can use to find peak flow at wide open throttle.

Take the planned ventri area of the three barrels. Say there is three 38 mm, or 1.496".

This is an area of pi* R squared, or 3.141*(1.496/2)*(1.496/2), or 1.757 square inches each. In square inches, that's 5.27 squares total. In sqaure feet, that's 0.03662 sqaures.

Then, take 340 cfm, and find how fast in feet per second the air speed is. At 1.5"hg, air speed is about 275 feet per second, or 16500 feet per minute. In a 3.0" Hg carb, it is 390 feet per second, or 23400 feet per minute.

With three 38 mm carbs feeding a demand of 340 cfm, the peak speed is V= Q/A. 340 divided by 0.03662 is only 9285 feet per minute. This is a factor of 1.77 less than the rate of 1.5"Hg, so the actual pressure at wide open throttle is 0.84"Hg.

I would say any carb with a 38 mm bore should flow 201 cfm at 1.5"Hg, and 284 cfm at 3.0"Hg. Either of those carbs should work out okay.

In the case of non independent runner systems, the rule I use is 70 to 34 cubes of engine for every square inch of carby area. With a 200 running three 38 mm carbs, it has 37 cubic inches or engine for each sqaure inch of carb.
 
Deano;

I think I'm in love with you Weber chart - I wish I'd had that 25 years ago! It took 4 years to get the 750 Hondas to a reliable 12,000 RPM, using 32mm carbs in the end - which falls smack dab on your chart....!

34mm carbs would never let 'em get past the "break" at 9000 RPM because the mixing would run too rich, 30mm would choke 'em at 12,000 RPM, but it would get there real easily. So, we tuned in the expensive way, with 20 carbs........
 
Back
Top