Crankshaft lightening, photos...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
  • Start date Start date
Crankshaft lightening has always interested me. Does anyone have some real world information on why you wouldn't want to do it on an everyday street engine?

Sure, I can understand not getting too carried away but to some degree or another it seems like it would be a very good modification. Even a little seems like it would be beneficial. I can't think of what would be detrimental if done on a modest level.
 
Howdy All:

Lightening rotating and reciprocating weight can be a very good thing in allowing for rapid acceleration and reduceing stress wear, so long as what is left; can be brought back into balance, strength is not compromised, and stiffness, or resistance to twist is maintained.

In a small displacement engine some rotating mass weight is good to help maintain spin energy or flywheel torque. I recall a Packard gasser back in the day that had a 265 chevy with a 40 lb flywheel added to get the hulk out of the hole.

In general it is better to start off lightening the reciprocating weight first. That includes the piston, pin and ring set, and then the connecting rods. Start with the piston, pin and ring set then the rods. This weight must start and stop motion and accelerate in the opposite direction twice in every crankshaft revolution. That is the weight that puts the greatest stress on the crank and the support system.

Lightening the rotating weight- the crankshaft, should be done next with several things in mind- Don't compromise strength and stiffness, be able to rebalance with all parts in mind. When lightening a crankshafts counter weights it is a good idea to think of oil control and thermodynamics too. Uncontrolled oil can be as counterproductive as a too heavy crank.

That's my two cents, for what it's worth.

Adios, David
 
8) lightening a crank for the street is a good idea, as long as you dont go too far. iirc you can take about 7lbs out of the average V8 crank and have no durability problems, or balance problems, with a street engine. race engines you can take about double that amount since the cranks are replaced every few races anyway, and are usually made from billet stock.
 
I have lightened SBC cast cranks and had excelent results. The lightest was about 38 lbs. We ran these in everything from a 3000 lb purestreet car to limited late model. Some of these were in excess of 430 hp and they held up better than expected.

First off, use a crank that has seen little stress. We used 305 cranks because they had seen less stress than the average 350.

Drill lightening holes in the journals first, then profile the throws and remove all of the rough casting. As you are grinding thru the rough cast the surface will be shiney. After grinding a little more you will notice that the surface is even better, what you saw as shiney will look kind of grey. Grind all of the surface till you have gotten to good clean metal. When you are satisfied that you have a good clean surface, tape up the journals with duct tape and shotpeen the crank. When it comes out of the shotpeen process inspect it for dull grey areas. A dull grey area will indicate the need to grind and polish more.

When you are satisfied that you have ground and polished it well, it is time to grind the journals. When grinding the journals I would always add some radius to the journal, even if it meant grinding to .030 under. This will add strength. It doesn't leave room for a regrind, but the crank will live it's full usefull life if kept clean. Meaning it will crack before it wears out.

I also like to equalise the strokes and make sure the mains are indexed with the front snout and rear flange.

After grinding the journals it is time for a trial ballance. Somewhere around here I have some notes on how much counterweight to remove for X amount of weight. It changes as the diameter of the counterweight gets smaller. On the 350's with Speed Pro Hypereutictics I could find the lowest part of the rear counterweight and set my mill .100" smaller and mill all of the counterweights to that diameter for a good starting point. It would often take two or three trips to the mill to get close enough to call it maxed out, then we would finish with normal drilling.

Most of the cast piston motors would have about a 40 lb crank and the limited motors with the lightest possible parts would end up about 38 lbs. I just can't understand people lining up to pay 600.00 dollars for a cast crank. :lol: Some of these lasted for more than 2000 race laps on a 3/8 to 1/2 mile track, not counting hot laps and packing the track. Thats comparable to the average steel truck crank.

I had a better way to cut the counterweights than the guy in the link. I took an old dampener without the outer ring and honed it for a slip fit. I would center it on my rotary table and bolt it down solid. I would then stand up the rotary table and bolt it to the mill. Insert the crank into the damper hub and use a draw bolt to hold the crank in place. Install my homemade tailstock with a live center. This way I could rotate the crank while milling the counterweights. I could also rotate the crank and rough in the profile of the throws. I could even index it for radiusing the leading edge and knifedeg the trailing edge of the counterweight, all using one setup. This part was done with a ball end mill and it's a little like etch a scetch, then finished by hand. In the end, I could take five cranks and drill the lightening holes in the journals and rough in the throws and mill the counterweights round, and average about 1 1/2 hours per crank. It's not bad when you have a system and can do more than one at a time.

The one crazy, crank related problem I haven't figured out is the SBF. I had a customer who ran SBF motors in SCCA A Sedan.
Spec motor. 10:1 comp, .500 lift cam, GT40 heads, Edel RPM intake, only portwork was gasket match heads not more than one inch into ports.
We would ocasionaly break a block. Most would split from the cam tunnel down. The E7 blocks were better than the F1 blocks but the E7 blocks would still split after awhile. We accepted this as part of a thinned out casting. We used a variety of crankshafts over the years, one of which was a 302 boss crank for the mule, it actualy slowed the car down as expected, so we felt we weren't cheating. One was the early 28 OZ crank so I could exploit the factory lightening holes in the throws and move as much counterweight as possible inside of the block, a step towards internal ballancing. In the end, the engines with the 50 OZ ballancers and flywheels did less damage to the blocks. :? This should have been the other way around. The extra counterweight mounted outboard of the block, should have created more of a whipping motion and flexed the crank more, and I am sure it did from the telltale signs of the wear pattern on the bearings. I just don't know how it could, not affect the block more and crack it earlier. The only thing I can think of, is the extra counterweight swinging that far off of the centerline has some effect on the inertial/cycling loads that are created. I mention this because removal of counterweights parallels this. I have seen Pinto engines with all of the counterweights removed and it would be possible to remove the counterweights on any inline engine and the symetrical layout would ballance it but longevity would be lost. You need some counterweight for a given amount of piston and rod weight. I have no idea how much but keep it within reason.
 
OK!

Who remember the 300 crank pics posted here with NO counterweights. IIRC it was one of the "Legend" racers.

Have seen 4 bangers and flathead Fords v-8s cranks with no counterweight. Old man in Boulder, Colorado, Bonneville Salt Flat Racer. Ran a lakester made from a drop tanks. His garage was a working, living museum. This was in '68. He was building "the tank" for one more Hooray.

Sad never found out, move from there before he made it.
 
Thad":ldihaeg5 said:
...Who remember the 300 crank pics posted here with NO counterweights. IIRC it was one of the "Legend" racers...

I remember those pictures. They took an enormous amount of weight off that thing.

Less crank weight equals less flywheel effect. This is good for acceleration, bad for low speed lugging. At low speeds you want more weight to keep things moving between power pulses. The John Deere Model "D" two-cylinder tractor engine had a displacement of just over 500 cubic inches and a rated top speed of 975 rpm. The flywheel/crankshaft assembly weighed about 500 lbs (minus pistons/rods).

Keep in mind the fact that the big end of the connecting rod is mostly rotating weight, the little end is mostly reciprocating weight, and the middle is somewhat of a combination of both (varying by just which point of the middle you look at).

Having NEVER built a racing engine I am grossly unqualified; however it seems to me that balancing the big ends would be more critical than the small ends.
Joe
 
Here's the link, vintage39c.tripod.com Go to the menu then to Lets talk tech.
 
Lazy JW":jjr73ufy said:
Thad":jjr73ufy said:
Keep in mind the fact that the big end of the connecting rod is mostly rotating weight, the little end is mostly reciprocating weight, and the middle is somewhat of a combination of both (varying by just which point of the middle you look at).

Having NEVER built a racing engine I am grossly unqualified; however it seems to me that balancing the big ends would be more critical than the small ends.
Joe

yes balancing the big ends of the rods is more critical than the little ends. usually what you do is balance the big end weights first, then grind the balance pads on the small ends to equalize rod weights.
 
I left out the final shotpeen process. We would tape up the journals with duct tape and leave the radius exposed. Three layers of tape would protect it for a fifteen minute peening process in a wheelabrator.

There are benefits from proper counterweights in the long run. If max effort is the ultimate goal, cut them off. If I were going to try it, I would build a low budget combo and monitor bearings, main webs, crank throws and timing components.

Performance can increase without a damper for the same reason. Performance can also increase with the proper selection of a dampener in some cases.

In the end, it is all a bunch of compromises. How much do you want and what are you willing to give up for it? :? :lol:
 
Miss Quote? Would that be Stevie? I didn't see her post in this thread.

Looks like the crank isn't the only thing around here that's no longer balanced
 
The late Gene Berg of Volkswagen fame went to great lengths to ADD counterweights to stock VW cranks for high rpm use. He even had special forgings made and produced his own branded stroker cranks that had even heavier counterweights.

Of course the dynamics of a boxer 4-cylinder are a bit different than a straight six or V-8. The rocking couple from the two center pistons traveling together and the two outer cylinders together really twists that little magnesium engine case.

Stock air-cooled VW cranks have no counterweight, just a flat crank and they rely on a heavy flywheel to keep things balanced. Gene Berg even built (and sold) heavier-than-stock crank pulleys to counteract the vibrations from high revs.

His reputation for building fast VW's is well known so it apparently worked.

I would never lighten the flywheel or counterweights on my White Ox engine.
Joe
 
I wouldn't do it on an engine intended for real work either. But it seems like an interesting experiment for a highway cruiser, which is 99 1/2% of what I do anymore. Extra heavy flywheels began being used as a modification on 4WD rigs a long time ago as well.

I "restored" a 1936 Model D for guy once. Didn't really need much, paint and decals mostly. I was working at the Ford place then, the older guys said that old Model D would drag a brand new Ford 5000 around backwards if you chained them up. Kind of fun to start using that giant flywheel with the big finger/hand grips in it. Had little cups for each cylinder to put some gas in to help start it as well as dual fuel tanks, a little one for gasoline to get it going. And it had water injection for more power. 1936!

Another neat thing was the big cast iron oval radiator cap, which just sat there by it's own weight. Funny shape you might think, maybe just decorative. Until you put water in the radiator with a bucket, and see that that shape fit the stream of water from an ordinary bucket just perfectly.

The guy said his father bought it brand new in Los Angeles, then drove it up to our local area north of Seattle. Now that must have been some trip in 1936. I need a time machine.
 
rmt":23sq93zl said:
...The guy said his father bought it brand new in Los Angeles, then drove it up to our local area north of Seattle. Now that must have been some trip in 1936. I need a time machine.

8) 8) 8)
Did that Model D have rubber tires?

According to my book of Nebraska Tractor Test #236 the 1935 "D" had three speeds with top gear rated at 5 mph. Engine speed was 900 rpm on this earlier tractor. (The next "D" tested was in 1940).

Gene Berg DID lighten the flywheels of the VW's but had to add counterweights to help control crankshaft flexing.

Lightening the flywheels/counterweights on a street 300 would probably help performance.
Joe
 
Lazy JW":nkhatgjs said:
Did that Model D have rubber tires?

According to my book of Nebraska Tractor Test #236 the 1935 "D" had three speeds with top gear rated at 5 mph. Engine speed was 900 rpm on this earlier tractor. (The next "D" tested was in 1940)

That one did have rubber tires, the handful of others I have seen did not. I suppose the hardest part of that trip may have been staying awake. It is something I would loved to have done. I have never gotten tired of driving tractors over country roads.

That trip would have been something back then, even in a car. I've done it many times, but never once on I-5 the whole way. The west coast is still a big beautiful place when you get away from the cities and crowds, in 1936 it must have been awesome plugging along out in the open to get home, with nothing but little towns and farms along the entire way.

Edit: Gene Berg was one of my heroes.
 
rmt":3ja251pv said:
That trip would have been something back then, even in a car. I've done it many times, but never once on I-5 the whole way. The west coast is still a big beautiful place when you get away from the cities and crowds, in 1936 it must have been awesome plugging along out in the open to get home, with nothing but little towns and farms along the entire way.
I don't think that trip was as pleasant as it would first seem.... I'm sure it got nervous from time to time, as that was still rough country back then; Wyatt Earp had died only 7 years before. And the fact that the tractor wasn't trucked up to where he was tells me he wasn't made of money. Since it was the depression, all the way back he was probably wondering just how the hell he was going to pay for it...
 
Back
Top