Do we undercarb our sixes?

Sort of. Multi carb setups are mainly used for more even mixture distribution so as to avoid one cylinder being lean (or rich) and to prevent some cylinders from getting less mixture than others. Also... it's a lot easier to atomize fuel into several smaller airstreams than it is to try and evenly atomize fuel into one larger one.
 
In reality, a four-barrel really is a multiple carb, all built in one piece. I suspect that a Rochester Q-Jet would run quite well on a 300-6 (if you could find someone twisted enough to try it :twisted:). The tiny primarys would give good driveability, and those HUGE secondarys would flow all the air you could want as long as the opening event was properly calibrated so they wouldn't open too soon.
Lazy JW
 
I'm not that twisted! well maybe a bit.... I am gonna try it just the same. I have a big Rochester in my garage just waiting to be used on something. I'll be buying a core engine in a couple of weeks so I can get started on my build-up.
 
Since the US auto makers in general, and the Holley carb company in particular, haven't needed to cater for six cylinder perforance vehicles like ours, heres the source of the answer :arrow: http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7015. Here's the question again:-

SuperMag asked
Recently a conversation has popped up that questions whether or not we undercarb our sixes. Since this is where the discussion started, let's look at the 300, and ask the question "Is the 390cfm Holley big enough for the job?"


Yes, we do under carb our sixes, and the 300 is one of the most undercarbed engines you can get. But thats okay, so are a lot of Ford engines.

Just for you, Super Mag, here's four empirical formulae that sorts the wheat form the charf:-


Smallest carb venturi area for resonable performance:-
Cubic Inch displacement divided by 115

On a 300 cid engine, thats 2.607 sq inches of venturi.In this case, the smallest carb should be bigger than the #2300 or #2300 350 cfm 2-bbl (2.215 sq in), and slightly smaller than the same breed 500 cfm 2-bbls. (2.970 sq in). Use the 500 cfm Holley.


Best carb for performance and economy compromise:-
Cubic Inch displacement divided by 70

On a 300 cid engine, thats 4.286 sq inches of venturi. In this case, the best carb should be bigger than the #4150 or #4160 390 cfm or 465 cfm 4-bbl (3.547sq in or 3.759 sq in), and slightly smaller than the same breed 550 cfm 4-bbls. (4.669 sq in). Use whatever carb fits a 4-bbl manifold. I'd say the Road Demon 525 cfm fits the bill perfectly!


Best carb for maximum performance:-
Cubic Inch displacement divided by 34 to 57. Use the smaller number if engine is able to rev above 6000 rpm, use larger if engine is not likely to go above 6000 rpm

On a 300 cid engine, thats 5.263 sq inches. The 4-bbl 4011/4165 650 cfmspreadbore (5.069 sq in), the old 660 Centresquirter #4160 (5.160 sq in), Fords # 4180 600 cfm carb (5.160 sq in), or he 4010, 4160 versions of this 600 cfm design.

The best independent runner carb for perfromance is (3 X 2bbl Weber, DellOrto, SKF, etc) :-
Cubic Inch Dispalcement divided by 22, if its a streeter reving to 6000 rpm, or 27 if its a lower rever than that. For a 300, six carbs with 42 mm throats are required, so nothing less than three DCO 55'S with 42 mm chokes, or some 48 DHLA Dellortos with 42 mm chokes. You could go down to DCOE 45's with 39 mm chokes for something that won't see over 6000 rpm.

If you look at the chart I prepared on all the Holley carbs made, check the engine sizes that effectivley used these carbs and relate them back to the calculated venturi area, you get a clear relationship. There are 44 carbs there, and if you look at column J. |Total V AREA|, you can find a carb that fits the formulae.

Post script. The 250 Falcon cross-flow engine, up till 1992, ran a Weber/Holley #5200 32/36 derivative carb, the Weber ADM 34/34. It was a carb of 1.736 sq in venturi area. Sized for more than 140cubic inches for every than 1 sq in of carb. It gave, in service, brilliant fuel economy, but poor power (131 hp). The same size carb was used on 97 cubic inch Cortinas and Capris. There was only 55 cubic inches for every 1 sq in of carb. So on a 1.6 liter sucker, it was a screamer that could rev to 6600 rpm, on the 4.1 liter engine, a plodder, which hated going over 4000 rpm.

If you do the calcs for the 200 cube six, you find the #5200 Holley 2-bbl is the least carb you need for reasonable performance, and the 500 cfm Holley for the performance and economy compromise, and the 390 cfm comes out as the minimum for perforamance. A real screamer might like a 600 cfm carb, if it could rev over 6000 rpm. I've suggested the Holley 465 in other posts, because it's got less signal than the 390 cfm carb. For the best independent runner carb for performance.Three DCOE 45 with 35 mm chokes if the engine is a screamer. If it is a rather milder engine, and not like Jacks alloy headed Locost or Mustangaroos 2V screamer, then 32 mm chokes in either DCOE 40,42 or DCOE 45mm carb bodies will do the trick.


For the 250 six, given good manifolding, you get the 500 cfm 2-bbl as the least carburation, the 390 cfm for the best performance/eccomy compromise, and the 465 to 550 cfm 4-bbls for the performance of a engine that won't rev past 6000 rpm. A screamer going over 6000 rpm could theoretically run an 830 cfm 4-bbl. In practice, the 600 cfm seems like the best carb for a hard charging six that might see 6000 rpm. For the best independent runner carb for performance.Three DCOE 45 with 39 mm chokes if the engine is a screamer. If it is a rather milder engine, and most 250's are, then 35 or 36 mm chokes in either DCOE 42 or DCOE 45carb bodies will do.
 
Smallest carb venturi area for resonable performance:-
Cubic Inch displacement divided by 115

Best carb for performance and economy compromise:-
Cubic Inch displacement divided by 70


Best carb for maximum performance:-
Cubic Inch displacement divided by 34 to 57. Use the smaller number if engine is able to rev above 6000 rpm, use larger if engine is not likely to go above 6000 rpm

I'm curious as to what these numbers are a function of. They appear to be based on displacement, rather than on any estimate/goal of a specific level of horsepower...?
 
Lazy JW wrote:

I suspect that a Rochester Q-Jet would run quite well on a 300-6 (if you could find someone twisted enough to try it ). The tiny primarys would give good driveability, and those HUGE secondarys would flow all the air you could want as long as the opening event was properly calibrated so they wouldn't open too soon.

The Edelbrock carbs over 600cfm all have larger secondaries, regardless of the flange pattern. Anybody try a 750 Edelbrock yet?
 
SuperMag":2jrtdh7j said:
Smallest carb venturi area for resonable performance:-
Cubic Inch displacement divided by 115

Best carb for performance and economy compromise:-
Cubic Inch displacement divided by 70


Best carb for maximum performance:-
Cubic Inch displacement divided by 34 to 57. Use the smaller number if engine is able to rev above 6000 rpm, use larger if engine is not likely to go above 6000 rpm

I'm curious as to what these numbers are a function of. They appear to be based on displacement, rather than on any estimate/goal of a specific level of horsepower...?

:thumbup: That's it mate. A rule of thumb, based on 50 engine combos with the Holley, Holley/Weber, Weber, Solex and Dell Orto carbed engines ranging from 78 cubes to 540 cubes of engine . Once you have the basic venturi sizing to the capacity of the engine, you can then play around with the level of 1, jetting, 2, cam , 3, porting 4, exhast, and ultimately, the power you need. It's all in the four modifcations that make the difference between the mild one and the wild one. Once the sizing is within 'cooee' venturi area doesn't need to change at all. This is very similar to the BSFC rating with injectors in EFI vehicles. There is a fairly wide margin. Its capped at maximum levels, and you could run much larger injectors but still have the car run well.

E.g. 1 A stock GT 351 Cleveland ran a 3310 Holley, mild 2V 256 degree cam with 430 thou lift, 10.7:1 compression and gave about 290 hp net stock. With the same heads but a killer 290 degree, 480 thou cam, the same carb gave a dynoed 350 hp net with tubing tri-y headers, open Shaker induction, and a mechanical advance ignition. The 40 extra ponies were just deliverd with a more ragged engine spec. No venturi alteration at all.

E.g. 2 Why would Ford shove a 600 cfm Holley on a 175 hp net 5.0?. We all know it's nothing to get 300 hp from one of these. A stock engine is way over carbed if you do the traditional approach of air-flow for a 302 winding to 5000 rpm with 85% VE. That's about 371 cfm. Why didn't they just use a 390 cfm carb, rather than a 600 cfm carb. It was just after the Iran oil crisis, and CAFE averages of over 22.5 mpg. Surely Ford execs would have more brains? Well, they did, because the theory goes out the window if practical testing bore out that a 600 cfm carb worked just fine.
 
Ummm...if I can interject a bit of experience here....

First, let me say, for the record, I'm an engineer. I normally like to use formulae to approach these sorts of issues.

But...

I have always noticed that engine designers use one very consistent 'rule of thumb' for engines across the board - 1,2,4,6 and 8 cylinders - I've seen all comply - the carb throat is almost always the same size as the intake valve. This is true, for instance, on these 200 CID engines (early versions have 1.625" carbs and intake valves, later have 1.75" carbs and valves), on the 2000cc Ford 4-cylinder Hi-Po engines like the Capri had, the 289/302 and all of the FE family (you probably know these as the 390/427/428 family), and all of the 4-stroke motorcycles I've worked on and around, all comply.

There is a driveability issue here, for sure. If the intake valve is too small to create enough plenum vacuum during the intake stroke, the carb won't mix well. To combat this problem, motorcycle engines use NO power valve. That way, when vacuum is low, the mixing still occurs as the air passes over the jet(s). When vacuum is high, the carb mixes efficiently. In Holley carbs, though, low vacuum lets the power valve spring open too soon, causing a rich mixture. Some other auto carbs are this way, too.

One idea that I have not had opportunity to try is to oversize the carb, but plug the power valve. Since auto carbs have acceleration pumps, they will not 'fall on their face' when you jump into it, yet it will not bog due to excessively rich mixture, which is common.

Someday....
 
Couldn't agree more on the adjustability of passenger car carbs. A little 1.594 liter European car with one DGAV 32/36 and 26/27 venturis, producing 85 hp or so, and the same carb running on a 200 (3.270 L) or 250 I6 (4.089 L), with two and a half times the capacity, running brilliantly with just jetting changes, giving better power and economy. Same carb!

On traditional American in-liners, under carbed with one venturi,you're right. Example kinda goes out the window with

1.the 2.19 "valve on the 351 C 4V,

2. or the cross-flow 2-bbl with dual throat 34 mm ( 1.33 mm) throttles and 27 mm venturis, and 1.75 or 1.80" intake.

3. But didn't Ford drop back to the single venturi carb for the 2.3 in 1985 to deal with emissions? The carb was about the same size as the valve there too?
 
Everything is relative in my view, the NASCAR boys run 390 cfm carbs. I believe carb size can best be determined by powerplant volumetric efficiency. In other words a junker 300 L6 with stock head and small valves won't pump enough air to warrant using anything bigger than a 390 cfm carb........the other end of the spectrum being a NASCAR V8 engine flowing much more air could certainly use a much bigger carb than 390 cfm due to it's volumetric effeciency being closer to 100%, Talk about under kill, a 390 cfm carb on a NASCAR preped engine! I am currently moding my first 300L6 and it's plain to see why Ford choked it to death with restrictive intake and exhaust, it's really designed for low-end grunt and not high rpm usage......the thing will barelly reach 4,000 rpm in stock carburated trim. I think with the mods most of us do the 390 is more than enough for street use, but if your like me it's never enough, never fast enough, never torquey enough.....it's gotta go faster.........
 
You have to remember the Nascar guys use a 390 cfm carb because the rules say so...if there was no cfm limit, you would find a lot of Holley Dominators going round and round on the ovals...
 
Probably 2 per car.
I wasn't advocating the 390 as a high-performance carb just pointing out that it's capable of doing a lot more than it's nominal size would indicate and is not overly small for the 300. Personally, I'm more comfortable with AFBs than Holleys (misspent youth, my best friend was a Mopar motorhead) so that would push me towards a Edelbrock 500 for a carbed 300. No question at all about size there.
 
just to throw my 2 cents in....Buick staight 8 (and others) used a 2 carb set-up with a "door"(similar to a heat riser in an exhaust manifold) in the intake that completely blocked off the #2 carb in high vacuum situations. I work on a customers car (1937) that runs this set-up and it works great! I was thinking of trying a similar deal with mine-only with a larger #2 carb.
 
StrangeRanger":1s3x52q2 said:
...I wasn't advocating the 390 as a high-performance carb just pointing out that it's capable of doing a lot more than it's nominal size would indicate and is not overly small for the 300...

The 390 is an excellent carburetor for motors that make 275 HP or less; it's a mathematical fact that 390cfm is all your motor is going to draw in making 275 HP. A bigger carb will gain you nothing except diminished performance and mileage down low. And on a N/A 300, 250 HP is about all you're gonna get from a stock head and bolt-ons. If you're lucky.

But if you step up to the plate and do the headwork, yeah, you need a bigger carb. I've had both Holley 4150s and Carter AFBs, and for a street motor I prefer the AFB as well. The Carter is more easily tuned, and there are no gaskets/joints below the 'waterline'.
 
according to CFM calculations. A 200 with 100% volumetric efficiency needs 347 CFM. at 80% : 278 CFM. the 1V is definitely under carbing the engine.
 
I'm back. Let's examine the cylinder dynamic here.

Imagine a single cylinder 300ci engine running at 1 rpm. What's the CFM requirement at 100%VE ? What's the cfm requirement at 4000 rpm? Now why would a single cylinder engine running at 1rpm need more air than the same displacement multicylinder engine? Because even though it's 300ci, it has to take one huge 300 cube gulp at a time.

Now build a hypothetiical 300ci engine with 60 cylinders and run it at 1rpm. Now the intake pulses are spread evenly over time and the carb requirement may actually be be smaller because the carb is working in a more continuous fashion.

That's why you can use a seemingly huge set of DCOE's on an engine. they each have to provide a LOT of air all at once, but less frequently because they service fewer cylinders. It's that same cylinder dynamic that's at work here.

The same logic leads you to see that a 300 cube six might need more airflow capacity than a 300 cube V8 because even though the total volume of air is the same, the six has to ingest it in fewer, but larger gulps.

A large plenum might partially make up for it, but I think these engines need a lot more carb than we normally figure. While a 300 cube V8 might be happy with a 500 cfm carb, a same displacement six might need 600 cfm.[/u]
 
Weber, Mikuni, et al. are much better air/fuel emulsifiers and mixers than your typical Holley 4v, and you can get away with bolting those right to the side of your crossflow head. If you did that to a Holley, it would freak, as it requires a pretty steady flow of air to function correctly.

4V manifold engineers are cognizant of this, and that's why your typical 4V manifold has as large a plenum chamber as it does. I'm not denying the existence of the phenomenon you describe, I just don't think it shows itself on a typical street motor to the extent that you would have to overcarb to compensate for it. The last time I hooked up the vacuum gauge things looked pretty steady...
 
I'd like to add my hearasy, ah heresy, no, um, unfalturing humble brilliance to this subject.

:idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

Thanks.


Seriously, when talking DCOE's or other independent runner systems, the pulse tuning issue comes through as a plus on a six in line. They can take huge slugs of fuel air mix from humungus carbs. V8's can have issues here.

When talking Holleys, Jimi Carters, Rochesters, et al, you are looking at the huge lean out problem in cylinders number 1 and 6. The time of concentration is worse on a six than any other vehicle, aside from a Lincoln V12.

What I think underrides SuperMags posts (sorry bud, not tryin' to pscho-analyse) is that its really easy to over-carb, not an issue to undercarb. The line between performance and economy was set by Ford on its sixes way back in the 60's. It wasn't until 1982 that Ford Australia (not including the 2V Jimi Stromberg Experience of the early 70's) found they could carb the sixes up and still get economy. Shove a 600 cfm, 20% of the drivers will be happy 20% of the time. Go for the 390, and 80% will be delighted 80% of the time.

Even though V8's can be thirstier, the six cylinder owner expects some kind of modicum of fuel economy.

What amazes me is the European people who drive cross-flow and OHC Falcons. They get in, and expect big power from such big engines, being used to 97 to 183 cube suckers that have to be reved to the nines to get there Renault or Rover moving. Then when they do, they find bag-loads of tyre smoking torque, and never to have to change a gear again.

Chrysler in Austrailia did a massive re-education of this lazy approach to cubes. They shoved triple 45mm DCOE's on any thing with 265 cubic inches. It gave a mixture of torque and power that was the killer of any Boss 302, Z/28 or 351 HO 4V. It has taken 20 years of turbo, twin cam and efi technology for Ford to catch up. The latest 2003 XR6 Turbo is only slightly quicker than the Valiant Charger Six pack was in 1972. And all the Charger had was triple carbs, a cam, and the same light weight that all early six in-line Mustangs have.

If you are prepared to trade in economy for performance, a well carbed six will give you the goods. I agree with Jack. The sixes are really under carbed, but done so for a reason....fuel economy.
 
I'm not proposing that every engine needs a Holley Dominator sitting on it, but there are factors at work beyond just rpm and displacement that you have to consider.

Some adjustment for plenum size has to be made and that's probably the reason the 250 even runs as well as it does. It has a fairly large log plenum. The plenum effect is also the reason the vacuum readings remain fairly stable but there's no denying that the intake pulses are there. They just get averaged out. And xecute is correct; I think they did that as a fuel economy strategy.

I wish I had some dedicated dyno time to work on this, but my gut instinct and observation tells me that the carb sizing for an inline six with a single carb should be about 10% larger than the CFM/rpm/VE formula would indicate.

Anyway, the point is that if I would use more carb than conventional wisdom would dictate. The 3.3liter x-flow hybrid is being fitted up with three 1.75" strombergs. If I were building a log head 200, I'd use a 500 cfm carb on a split plenum and at least a 350 on an open plenum. If I were building a 300, I'd pay close attention to plenum configuration and probably use something in 500-650 cfm range, depending on the manifold.
 
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