Duraspark II install woes

[barishiman]

hey everybody, long time now see!

for xmas this year I got a MSD ignition box to help me out with the duraspark II conversion in my 1965 mustang and for the past couple of days I've been trying to get the car running but have failed at every attempt. Therefore I consult the board.

Here's my setup
1965 mustang w/ I6 200
Weber 2bl carb
MSD 6A ignition box
Pertronix flame thrower 2 coil
Painless performance chassis wiring kit
remanufactored dizzy for 1979 Ford Fairmont
new rotor and cap
spark plugs set to .050 gap
new spark plug wires - 8.0mm crimped myself
new ignition switch
new solenoid

Problem
This fall and winter I've been rewiring the whole car with plans to have the engine run again before spring. I've followed Painless performance's wiring diagram concerning the installation of an MSD ignition box, MSD's instruction on Duraspark installation and followed the guidelines specified on Classic Inlines regarding installation of the Duraspark II conversion. When I changed out the dizzys, I made sure the new rotor lined up in the same position as its former. I proceeded to check for power - all good - and began to crank the engine with at least 5 gallons of gasoline in the tank. The engine will turn over and fire but will not run. Before the rewiring/ignition change the car would start and run fine.

I've rechecked the dizzy installation making sure the rotor faces in the #1 firing position with the #1 piston @ TDC after the compression stroke - based on the maintenance manual. I suspect the car wouldn't fire if I had the dizzy installed on the exhaust stroke. I then checked the ohms for each spark plug wire and here are my findings.

wire ohms length (in)
coil 8.3 17.5
1 7.5 17.5
2 8.0 16
3 7.5 18 1/4
4 5.5 20 1/2
5 13.2 30 1/2
6 13.3 33

I suspect that the #5 & #6 wires could be a problem due their higher ohms, so I changed out the #5 plug wire to a used 8.0mm that had a lower ohm number, still the results are the same - car will fire but not run. I have also switched out coils and no change. Both coils are reading approximately 2.0 ohms. Have recharged the battery every night after too many starts.

The chassis wiring kit did not come with a resistor, and the instructional manual fails to include two wires that are labeled 1) from fuse block to ignition module 2) from fuse block to ignition coil/resistor - these wires are not mentioned either for the MSD ignition. Since the car is firing I doubt this is the problem.

Are there any tests or procedures you guys can suggest? Its been fun working on the old car again, but this problem has me stumped.

 

[rbohm]

8) assuming that you have power to the coil with the key on, it sounds to me like you might have a fuel delivery problem. start by pulling the fuel line from the carb, and putting the end in a clear bottle and crank the engine for a few seconds. the bottle should start to fill up pretty quickly. if not then start at the tank and check the rubber line from the tank to the steel line. it will probably need replacing. check the other rubber lines in the system as well. if they are suspect, replace them also. then check to see if you are getting fuel now. again crank the engine for a few seconds. if you have a filter in the line, replace it.

if you are getting fuel, try advancing the timing a few degrees and then try starting the engine again.

 

[JackFish]

I suppose a few of us would ask, how did you verify TDC?
I usually put my finger over the #1 spark plug hole and rotate the engine by hand with a wrench on the crank snout, or bump it with a remote starter switch. Then feel for the puff of air on the compression stoke. And by eye on the valves with the cover off.

 

[fordconvert]

Before you took it apart were you looking at which wire the rotor was pointed to or just its physical orientation? Im thinking since there were no marks on the 65 cap telling which was 1 it may have not been where you think it was. The DS2 caps all seem to have a 1 on them. If you dont remember for sure looking at the wire it was pointed to you may need to use the finger over the #1 hole trick to make sure you are correct. The dizzy does not care which terminal goes to which cylinder.

Other thought is are you sure the orange and purple wires from the duraspark are not reversed going into the msd?

 

[barishiman]

It could be a fuel delivery problem at the filter on the carb or the gas. Earlier on I took out the tank, cleaned it up and reinstalled it with a new rubber line. The other rubber hoses were fairly new. I did use the old gas which had sta-bil, but filtered it with two paint filters removing some of the deposits - probably a gallon's worth and added about 4 gallons of new gas. I'll check on the fuel pump and replace the fuel filter for good measure.

As for the old dizzy, here's a pic of what it looked like before I took it out. thank god for cell phone cameras

According to the cap and orientation of the dizzy the rotor was facing #1 in the firing order. I did try advancing the timing which did help fire the engine, but wouldn't run. I'll recheck TDC with the valve cover off next time, turning the crank is a real hassle on my setup with the fan shroud. I have to use a socket and pry bar while under the car, moves about 1 inch each turn.

here's some other pics of the install

 

[fordconvert]

To find the compression stroke I usually take out the #1 plug and bump the starter till I feel the air pushing out the plug hole. Sometimes you got to go around a few times but it has always worked for me. You can watch the timing mark to know if you should be close.

 

[JackFish]

Get a remote starter switch, I think I paid like $10.

 

[mugsy]

When yuo say that the engine will fire but not stay running it sounds like the old Chrysler products of the day. They had an exteranl resistor in the fed to the coil that would burn out on the first cold day of winter. The engine would fire but not stay running. It sounds like your car has the smae issue. Have you checked that the ignition system is getting 12V or whatever it needs with the key in the "run" position? Start there...

I'm not familar with the MSD box (that's a future upgrade for me!!) but I'm assuming that they need 12V and not the normal 5-6V thru the resistance wire. But do double check the MSD instructions as to what voltage it requires to run.

 

[drag-200stang]

I just got done looking at the MSD diagrams. Apparently they have changed their thinking. They now want a full 12 volts at the ignition switch. They used to say it was just signal wires to turn the unit on. So it does look like the best thing to do is to eliminate the resistor wire.

The MSD gets its power from the large, red wire that you're supposed to run to the battery. Also must be grounded well. I take mine to the battery also. Make sure your engine is grounded to the battery. The motor mounts don't make a good ground. On the duraspark II pick up wires, the colors are backwards from what everybody else is. Check your diagrams carefully. Regardless, it will still run with it backwards. It just throws the timing off.

I think you need to retime the engine. Maybe someone turned the crank when you weren't looking. Good luck.

 

[barishiman]

Here's what I did today:

disconnected the fuel line from the carb and cranked the engine over with my remote starter, fuel pumped out two big gulps. Tried the same thing with fuel filter on and it looked like less so I went ahead and replaced the filter. Reverified TDC by bumping the engine over until I felt air leave the #1 spark plug hole, then manually cranked the engine until it reached TDC via the timing marks. Rotor was pointing to about six o'clock and matched #1 on the cap.

rechecked the MSD connections - white wire from solenoid "I" to small red wire on MSD, large red wire to "+" on battery cable, large black wire to "-" on battery cable, MSD violet wire to orange wire on dizzy, MSD green wire to violet wire on dizzy. One note, I extended both large wires to the battery using 10 gauge wire, not knowing the MSD wires were 12 gauge until after the fact. Don't know if that would cause a problem. I even reversed the violet and green wires on the dizzy and the car would still fire but not run.

I checked to see if the MSD box was getting 12 volts by turning the key to "on" and using my multimeter positive end on the female connection (small red wire) and the negative end on the engine ground - no reading. However the car is firing. The only thing I have left to do is check for spark per MSD's instructions. they say to disconnect the coil wire from the distributor and set the terminal approx. 1/2" from ground. what is ground in this case, like the motor mounts or the ground where the battery wire meets the block? my coil cable isn't very long.

I have the negative battery cable connected to the head and another ground cable from the starter to the firewall. I suspect that maybe it has to be a power issue, guessing my splicing of wires has failed or bad job crimping the spark plug wires. If the car is firing then there should be power going to the MSD box. I'm not big on electrical if you can tell.

I plan on switching over to platinum spark plugs which should help with the hotter spark, that's if I can get the car started. More pics of the setup.

MSD wires to battery cables

MSD wires to dizzy

extending power cables

small red wire to white wire - solenoid "I"

 

[rbohm]

8) you can use a plug wire in place of a coil wire if need be to check that you have spark from the coil.

 

[barishiman]

rbohm

I used one of my old 7mm wires for coil test. After fiddling around with the wiring I decided to use the wire going from the fuse box to ignition module as my 12 volt switch and it worked. Painless failed to mention this wire in the manual. Car is purring in the garage like never before. Hope to have a video soon!

 

[rbohm]

8)