Engine rebuilding questions

[ArtemisI6]

I am in the midst of rebuilding my girlfriend's (with her doing most of the work under my direction and occasional help - this is our way of bonding) new motor for her 1967 Mustang. This motor is a 200ci out of a 1978 Ford Fairmont. Although I have much mechanical experience with cars and a healthy collection of required tools, this is my first complete engine teardown. At the moment we're almost done disassembling it so I can have the local machine shop hot tank it to get the 30 years of built-up crap off the outside and clean what little stuff may be in the inside.

I have a couple questions:

Using this kit: http://classicinlines.com/proddetail.asp?prod=FEL-200-CGS do I receive enough freeze plugs to do the block only (including the rear ones) or does it also include enough freeze plugs to do the three on the head too? I'd love to pop the freeze plugs off the head to get it completely spotless inside and maybe to do some porting of the intake log while I'm in there but I don't want to break them out and then find I can't get replacements. If that kit doesn't include them does anyone know where I can get the correct ones? Might my local autoparts store be able to get me what I need? Should I go with this Felpro set or should I hold out for the Corteco set? What's the difference between the $10?

What are the advantages/disadvantages to steel freeze plugs versus brass?

Any tips on removing freeze plugs? I'd heard of drilling a hole in it and then inserting a screw and yanking them out, and I've also heard of just breaking them out with a hammer. Unless there's an issue with the technique I'll probably go with drilling a hole because it's less brutish.

The motor has 75,000 miles on it. Should I reuse the main bearings or buy new ones? A couple of the ones in the motor have some lines in them so I'm leaning towards just buying new ones. Is there anything I need to know when installing them? I already know to torque them down and to use assembly lube on all engine bearings upon reinstallation. What about connecting rod bearings? I haven't inspected those yet. Would it be good to replace them or can you typically reuse them if they're undamaged? Like I said, the motor was a healthy motor with 75,000 on it. We just want to make sure everything's gonna be completely kosher before it goes into the car. I don't want to replace them if I don't have to though because my girlfriend is on a tight budget and this project only moves as quick as she can afford to, so it'd be great to save money where we can. If it's one of those non-negotiable things though, we will.

We're gonna reuse the cam bearings (albeit with a new cam and lifters - we haven't decided what yet but something with a little more oomph that'll accentuate gofast parts as she can afford to install them) just because the removal tool is too expensive for me unless that's a huge mistake. They look pretty spotless to me.

Does anyone know the compression ratio for a '78 motor? I have a feeling it's probably around 8.5:1 but I don't want to trust my "gut" on such a thing. This is mostly idle curiousity. EDIT: I just looked on Classic Inlines tech info and found it to be 8.7:1. Will the use of the thin Felpro headgasket improve upon that at all?


Are there any tips I should know about/watch out for when reassembling this motor, or any motor in general? I intend on buying the Falcon Six Performance Handbook, but have not yet gotten to it unfortunately.


I feel like I wanted to ask more, but that's all I can remember at the moment. I appreciate any answers I receive.

 

[Lazy JW]

.... Should I reuse the main bearings or buy new ones? ...... What about connecting rod bearings?....

...... I don't want to replace them if I don't have to though because my girlfriend is on a tight budget and this project only moves as quick as she can afford to, so it'd be great to save money where we can. If it's one of those non-negotiable things though, we will..

Check them with Plastigage; if they are within tolerance then re-use them.

Drill the freeze plugs and insert a screw; yank with slide hammer.

Then get inside the coolant passageways and scrape everything as clean as you can get it BEFORE sending it in to be hot tanked. This will allow the hot tank to do a better job.
Joe

 

[ArtemisI6]

.... Should I reuse the main bearings or buy new ones? ...... What about connecting rod bearings?....

...... I don't want to replace them if I don't have to though because my girlfriend is on a tight budget and this project only moves as quick as she can afford to, so it'd be great to save money where we can. If it's one of those non-negotiable things though, we will..

Check them with Plastigage; if they are within tolerance then re-use them.

Drill the freeze plugs and insert a screw; yank with slide hammer.

Then get inside the coolant passageways and scrape everything as clean as you can get it BEFORE sending it in to be hot tanked. This will allow the hot tank to do a better job.
Joe

To use Plastigage, I put it in between the crank (for example) and the main cap (with bearing installed) and then torque it to spec, correct? Then I measure the thickness of the Plastigage?

Very good advice so far. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[Thad]

If hot tank is caustic it will kill the cam bearings. Can't pull and re-install, doesn't work that way. and they really need to be out to properly clean the oil gallery.
Kit should have freeze plugs for head if not you can buy singles as needed at most parts stores.
When installing new use a good sealant (many opinions here) 3-M upholstery cement, yellow death, works for me.

 

['68falconohio]

...or does it also include enough freeze plugs to do the three on the head too?

Don't forget the four smaller freeze plugs that are by the exhaust ports. I'm pretty sure there's seven total in the head.

 

[Lazy JW]

....
To use Plastigage, I put it in between the crank (for example) and the main cap (with bearing installed) and then torque it to spec, correct? Then I measure the thickness of the Plastigage?....

Actually, you measure the WIDTH of the Plastigage using the marks on the package in which it came.

Do NOT turn the crank!
Joe

 

[rbohm]

Using this kit: http://classicinlines.com/proddetail.asp?prod=FEL-200-CGS do I receive enough freeze plugs to do the block only (including the rear ones) or does it also include enough freeze plugs to do the three on the head too? I'd love to pop the freeze plugs off the head to get it completely spotless inside and maybe to do some porting of the intake log while I'm in there but I don't want to break them out and then find I can't get replacements. If that kit doesn't include them does anyone know where I can get the correct ones? Might my local autoparts store be able to get me what I need? Should I go with this Felpro set or should I hold out for the Corteco set? What's the difference between the $10?

in regards to the freeze plugs, the easiest way to get them out is to use a punch on one side of the plug and punch it with a hammer. it will usually turn the plug 90 degrees, and then you can yank the plug out using a pair of vice grips. yes it is a brutal way of doing it, but think of it as a nice little stress reducer. the freeze plugs are available at just about every parts store, so dont worry about getting replacements.

What are the advantages/disadvantages to steel freeze plugs versus brass?

use the brass plugs if you can as they do not rust like steel ones do. that and they look cool in contrast to a painted block.

The motor has 75,000 miles on it. Should I reuse the main bearings or buy new ones? A couple of the ones in the motor have some lines in them so I'm leaning towards just buying new ones. Is there anything I need to know when installing them? I already know to torque them down and to use assembly lube on all engine bearings upon reinstallation. What about connecting rod bearings? I haven't inspected those yet. Would it be good to replace them or can you typically reuse them if they're undamaged? Like I said, the motor was a healthy motor with 75,000 on it. We just want to make sure everything's gonna be completely kosher before it goes into the car. I don't want to replace them if I don't have to though because my girlfriend is on a tight budget and this project only moves as quick as she can afford to, so it'd be great to save money where we can. If it's one of those non-negotiable things though, we will.

do yourself a favor and replace the main and rod bearings. they are cheao insurance, and usually what happens is that the bearings lose their crush over time, and if you reuse them you take the risk of having to tear the engine down again to replace a spun bearing, or worse.

We're gonna reuse the cam bearings (albeit with a new cam and lifters - we haven't decided what yet but something with a little more oomph that'll accentuate gofast parts as she can afford to install them) just because the removal tool is too expensive for me unless that's a huge mistake. They look pretty spotless to me.

as long as the cam bearings are in good condition they can be reused with no issues as they dont get the pounding the main and rod bearings do. as stated earlier, if you do keep the cam bearings, do not use a caustic cleaner to clean the block with otherwise you will be replacing the cam bearings.

Does anyone know the compression ratio for a '78 motor? I have a feeling it's probably around 8.5:1 but I don't want to trust my "gut" on such a thing. This is mostly idle curiousity. EDIT: I just looked on Classic Inlines tech info and found it to be 8.7:1. Will the use of the thin Felpro headgasket improve upon that at all?

a thin head gasket will help a little, but the better thing to do is to have the head milled about .075" and use a felpro composite gasket. i have never had one leak in all the years i have built engines, but i have had the steel shim head gaskets leak.

Are there any tips I should know about/watch out for when reassembling this motor, or any motor in general? I intend on buying the Falcon Six Performance Handbook, but have not yet gotten to it unfortunately.

as with any motor, tale your time and use plenty of assembly lube, and dont use the cheap lube, use the good stuff. when assembling an engine, i like to pack the new oil pump with vaseline, and fill the oil filter before i start a new engine. if you do this DO NOT spin the oil pump with a drill as it is already primed with the vaseline. doing it this way you should get oil pressure almost instantly when you fire the engine for the first time. follow the cam grinders recommendation for breaking in the cam, usually running the engine at 2000-2500 for the first 20-25 minutes. do not let the engine idle during this time. if you have a problem shut the engine down, fix the problem and then restart it going immediately back to the break in rpm. the time is cumulative so starting and stopping the engine is not a problem. when you finish the break in period change the oil and filter. the vaseline you packed the oil pump with will be drained out with the first oil change.

 

[early ford fan]

in regards to the freeze plugs, the easiest way to get them out is to use a punch on one side of the plug and punch it with a hammer. it will usually turn the plug 90 degrees, and then you can yank the plug out using a pair of vice grips. yes it is a brutal way of doing it, but think of it as a nice little stress reducer. the freeze plugs are available at just about every parts store, so dont worry about getting replacements.

[thats the way i was taught.

 

[ArtemisI6]

Hello all, sorry I forgot to ask this previously:

I'm buying some Plastigage. We have red and green in stock at my job. One is for one set of tolerances and the other is for another, higher set. What's the max allowed tolerance on the main and rod bearings? Which Plastigage should I buy?

 

[rbohm]

8) the green plastigauge is what you want. the range is .001-.003"

 

[early ford fan]

aren't you supposed to use new bearings with plastigage?and what if the clearance is too great.will the parts house exthange them for the proper ones?

 

[rbohm]

8) plastigage is merely used to measure the bearing clearances, now or used.

 

[Anonymous]

If using steel freeze plugs seal with indian head or permatex sealer.
If using brass plugs use JB weld to seal to the block or head.

 

[ArtemisI6]

If using steel freeze plugs seal with indian head or permatex sealer.
If using brass plugs use JB weld to seal to the block or head.

Why the difference? Isn't JB Weld gonna pretty much guarantee I'll never get those freeze plugs back out?


Does anyone happen to know the specific tolerances I'm looking for when measuring the rod and main bearings with Plastigage?

 

[rbohm]

8) bearing clearances should be between .0015" and .0025" according to the factory. .003" is acceptable if you use a high volume oil pump, but beyond that you need new bearings.

as for what sealant to use, dont use jb weld, the #2 permatex does just fine on freeze plugs regardless of material used. i recommend the brass plugs though as they dont rust.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Art and all:

NIce project. Thanks for sharing. Question- I'm not aware of any thin FelPro head gaskets for our engines. What do You know about this? The stock steel shim type head gasket measures .025" where as the composite FelPro measures .050". Cortecos measure .053".

Question- all specs on a '78 200 I have show the CR to be 8:1. Increasing the CR on the rebuild is a good, inexpensive way to increase power and economy. Have you decided on a goal CR?

I'm assuming that you are planning on overboring and using new pistons and rings. IF that's the case have the machinist install the new cam bearings when he finishes cleaning up from the boring process. Also consider having the top of the block decked (Milled flat) to zero deck height. He will need the new pistons to accurately measure Pin Height. This usually requires a cut of about .025", but will give you a perfectly flat sealing surface, improve the quench effect and raise CR.

FYI- the stock '78 cam is not a good choice for performance. It was Advanced to improve low end torque and emmissions. A stock 250 cam would be a better choice, but only because it's timing was manipulated with the timing gears. CI has some excellant choices for an upgrade cam. CI also has a double roller timing chain and gear set available- well worth it for durability.

FYI- the head is where you will find a considerable amount of easy, but time intensive performance. Leave a performance valve job to the machinist, but plan on spending some time cleaning casting flashings out of the ports, smoothing transitions from as cast to machined, and polishing the combustion chambers. Specify that you want at least a three angle valve seat and a back-cut of 30 degrees on the intake valves. These steps will increase flow at all rpms and help to minimize pre-ignition. Also mill the head to achieve your goal CR.

We appreciate you buying our Performance Handbook, but I'd highly recommend that you buy a Shop Manual for both a '67 Mustang and a '78 Fairmont. They are pricey, but you won't regret it.

Most of all enjoy the adventure together. Keep us posted.

Adios, David

 

[andyman]

very good post :!: :thanks:

 

[ArtemisI6]

David,

Thank you for your very informative and interesting reply. A couple things, though.

I am planning on reusing the entire rotating assembly. I am using new piston rings, and I think I'll be reusing the cam bearings if I can find a way to clean the block out without using the machine shop's hot tank - which I found out was indeed caustic. I am planning on running a quick hone down the block myself just to clean things up a little. It has 75k on the motor and the crosshatching is very clear and visible, but it has a decent-sized carbon lip at the top of the cylinder.

I also need to get some Plastigage to check the rod bearings in order to decide whether I'll be reusing them or not.

My girlfriend has decided she's okay with using nothing but premium gas. That's really the biggest limit as far as compression ratio. She can use premium gas but would like to maintain at least mid-20's for gas mileage. She'll be using it daily so the more MPG's the better but mid-20's is the minimum. (She currently gets high 20's around town with this nasty, worn out, 192k '67 motor that consumes several quarts of oil a week.) What kind of compression ratio options does that open up, and what should I do to get there? She wants the motor better than stock but doesn't require a tire-roaster.

I've also been eyeing the cams on CI, as well as Comp Cam's options. I think a cam that starts building around 1500 rpms would be good for her as a daily driver in a '67 Mustang backed by a 3.03 3spd (eventually a 4cyl T5 when she can afford it though), no? Can anyone make any suggestions about what'll work? She's intending on putting on long tube headers eventually too.

How about a carburetor? Right now it's a very raggedy 1100. Would a Vaporizer be a good enough upgrade or should I begin investigating a 2-barrel? I've already read the articles on choosing a carburetor on CI but this is my first full engine build and I don't want to make an expensive mistake for my girlfriend.

For what it's worth, I'm also going to be porting and polishing the '78 head myself. I noticed that there were lots of casting crap and other "dirty" areas, so I am planning on cleaning that up considerably.

 

[rbohm]

I also need to get some Plastigage to check the rod bearings in order to decide whether I'll be reusing them or not.

bearings are cheap enough to buy, dont bother reusing the old ones. there are too many possible issues with used bearings, rod or main replace them both, that make it worth the few dollars for new bearings.

My girlfriend has decided she's okay with using nothing but premium gas. That's really the biggest limit as far as compression ratio. She can use premium gas but would like to maintain at least mid-20's for gas mileage. She'll be using it daily so the more MPG's the better but mid-20's is the minimum. (She currently gets high 20's around town with this nasty, worn out, 192k '67 motor that consumes several quarts of oil a week.) What kind of compression ratio options does that open up, and what should I do to get there? She wants the motor better than stock but doesn't require a tire-roaster.

try to kepp your compression ratio under 10:1 for the street, even on premium fuel. these sixes tend to have hot spots, and lean mixtures on a couple of cylinders specifically 2 and 5, that can cause detonation if you go too high on compression ratio or too much ignition lead. better to run about 9.5:1 compression and 12 degrees initial timing.

I've also been eyeing the cams on CI, as well as Comp Cam's options. I think a cam that starts building around 1500 rpms would be good for her as a daily driver in a '67 Mustang backed by a 3.03 3spd (eventually a 4cyl T5 when she can afford it though), no? Can anyone make any suggestions about what'll work? She's intending on putting on long tube headers eventually too.

good call on the cam, classicinlines has a few grinds that will work nicely. in your case i would use one of their single pattern cams with a lobe separation angle of 112 degrees. this will give you good low end torque, and a decent power curve for the street.

How about a carburetor? Right now it's a very raggedy 1100. Would a Vaporizer be a good enough upgrade or should I begin investigating a 2-barrel? I've already read the articles on choosing a carburetor on CI but this is my first full engine build and I don't want to make an expensive mistake for my girlfriend.

the vaporizer from pony carbs is an excellent choice. you can also machine the head to accept a direct mount autolite 2bbl carb also. both are reliable and effecient carbs.

For what it's worth, I'm also going to be porting and polishing the '78 head myself. I noticed that there were lots of casting crap and other "dirty" areas, so I am planning on cleaning that up considerably.

good idea. take your time and dont bother with polishing the ports. you can however polish the combustion chambers though.

 

[ArtemisI6]

Hey guys,

I just got back from the machine shop. He quoted me a price of $225 for milling the block* to zero deck height. That's a little rich for us. My girlfriend is a college student with a part-time job, so we're trying to keep this budget oriented. Is there anything we can do to raise compression to around 9.5:1 besides messing with the block? He quoted us $70 to mill the head - how much can I effectively take off of there?