All Small Six Ford 170 i6 squeak/tapping noise

[clmriot]

Hey all!

I am trying to trace down the source of this loud, inconsistent tapping/squeak noise. I've pulled the fuel pump, looked under the valve cover, and even removed the exhaust pipe (had holes in it), with no luck of finding the source.

could this be from something not being properly lubricated? Bad lifters? Definitely seems like it's coming from inside the engine and not the transmission. Old Econoline drives drives just fine.

Any help is appreciated!

 

[bubba22349]

So what year is this Econoline? When you pulled the valve Cover what kind of Rocker Arms did you see?

 

[clmriot]

So what year is this Econoline? When you pulled the valve Cover what kind of Rocker Arms did you see?

62' I'm guessing it's must have the solid lifters. Rockers are not adjustable either from what I can tell.

 

[bubba22349]

If it is still a 1962 engine than yes it will only have the Solid Lifters and the Intake and Exhaust Rocker Arm Lash is to be set to .016 Hot. If you find the Block Casting / Design Number we can verify the year of the engine block too. Below in first Attachment is a picture of what the stock Ford Adjustable Rocker Arms will Look like. In the second Att. is a picture of the Non Adjustable Rocker Arms look like.

 

[clmriot]

Yup! It's definitely the non adjustable rocker arms. No nut on top of them. Could it be that the valves loosened over time and caused the noise? I previously gave them a little tap with a rubber mallet to ensure none of the valves were stuck. They all seemed fine.

Here is a video I took of the engine sound. Its pretty loud because I'm having the exhaust pipe redone, but you can hear the random squeak sound pretty clear.

 

[bubba22349]

Hi clmriot, thank you for the picture it helps a lot! To me it looks like a much newer engine like a later 1960's up 200 or 170 those will all have Hydraulic Lifters and the Non Adjustable Rocker Arms. How many Freeze Plugs are on the side of the block under the exhaust Manifold? It doesn't sound like anything to do with the Valve Train to me. It might be a bad Front Bearing in the Generator or the Water Pump you could loosen up the Generator Adjustment and remove Drive Belt for a test than start the engine and see if the noise is gone or still there. You can hear those front bearing that are bad sometime by spinning the front pulleys by hand too. Good luck

 

[clmriot]

Hey @bubba22349, so I got to check things out tonight. I have 4 freeze plugs and I removed the belt completely to test. Still makes the sound with the generator and water pump disconnected. Is there a bearing behind the crank pulley?

 

[bubba22349]

Hi clmriot, you must of missed one of the of block Freeze Plugs if you found 4 there are 5 on the exhaust side of a 200 Block, a 144 or 170 Six Block will only have 3 on that side. There is a Front Oil Seal on the Timing Cover, maybe a Oil Slinger this depends on the year of the engine, the Timing Chain and the 2 Gears, plus the #1 Crankshaft Main Bearing that are behind the Crankshaft Damper and Pully. Those won't likely cause any of that type noise, except if the Timing Chain happens to be very Loose were its slapping and or dragging against the timing cover. If you have an old Wooden Broom handle or a very long handled Screw Driver you could use as a listening stick at the different parts of the engine to pin point were the noise is located. If you do that be very Careful around anything that turning. Good luck

 

[drag-200stang]

Sounds like an exhaust manifold leak to me. That carb looks like it is for the 1-1/2'' old head not the 1-3/4'' head hole that you have. We have seen leaks there before. We have also seen the pan pushed in some and it does not take much for the crank to hit and make noise like that.

 

[flatford6]

Sounds like a burnt exhaust or intake valve. loose leaky spark plug, flat camshaft lobe. or burnt out head gasket between two adjacent cylinders, or to the outside The engine is running really roughly; one cylinder is missing. Ground each plug wire in turn to find the bad cylinder. A clue is that the hiss is intermitant.

 

[Frank]

Sounds like a burnt exhaust or intake valve. loose leaky spark plug, flat camshaft lobe. or burnt out head gasket between two adjacent cylinders, or to the outside The engine is running really roughly; one cylinder is missing. Ground each plug wire in turn to find the bad cylinder. A clue is that the hiss is intermitant.

Agreed: burnt valve or valve being held slightly open intermittently by a sticky lifter. Probably the sticky lifter since the squeak and the miss coincide and are intermittent. (in addition to the other continuous miss.) (Have a 7.3 diesel doing the same thing, verified: lifter stuck pumped-up, not a burnt valve.)
The blow by did not look excessive.

 

[bubba22349]

Sounds like an exhaust manifold leak to me. That carb looks like it is for the 1-1/2'' old head not the 1-3/4'' head hole that you have. We have seen leaks there before. We have also seen the pan pushed in some and it does not take much for the crank to hit and make noise like that.

I think drag-200stang is hot on the trail of the engine missing problem! We just seen this same type thing happed on another 200 Six Large Log Head using the early Carb Heat Plate and a smaller Bore Carb on a 1 3/4 Inch carb opening mounting if its not done correctly there its going the cause of a massive Vacuum Leak under the Carb Heat Plate, Pictures of the other one here. https://fordsix.com/threads/firing-order-reversed.84345/page-2#post-677805

 

[clmriot]

Thanks all! I'm going to remove the carb tonight. I'll measure it's bore, along with heat plate bore and update will everyone.

I did in the past try to look into if a miss was there. While it was idling, I'd pull one spark plug and listen to the engine. While repeating this for each, only the #3 cylinder didn't cause a change in the idle. I wasn't sure if this was due to it being so close to the carb or not, or if this was in fact, missing. I also have a new cap/wires as well so I don't think it's a spark issue if it's missing.

 

[clmriot]

Was able to go outside and actually take things apart and...

It looks like the intake was double drilled for the heat plate? Not sure if this was because the heat plate was swapped out? Or the intake was? Older intakes are part of the head right?

Bore Measurements:
1.723 intake
1.373 heat plate
Can the unnecessary holes be filled with weld on the intake?

 

[clmriot]

Attached photos

 

[bubba22349]

Well they at least they did a better job of mounting that smaller heat plate onto the large Log Head. Not the best Idea to be welding on these Cast Iron heads it would need to be Warmed up first like in an oven and than weld it with a Nickle Rod and wrapped up in an insulating blanket then kept oven warm and slowly let it cool down over a long time or else it will just Crack right next to the weld, it is also very hard to do successfully in the Colder Winter time. You could use some set screws with a small counter sunk head if there is room to plug them or maybe some Epoxy. Did you test if there was a Vacuum leak with some Carb spray? It looks like there could of been a Vacuum Leak to me maybe you can even try some of the Permatex Gasket Sealer in those two outside holes and hand make a larger Gasket out of some thicker Gasket Paper that matches the Large Log Head Carb Mounting Hole and all the way out to the edge of the Carb Mounting surface that might help it seal better.

 

[clmriot]

@bubba22349 I did test with some break clean a week ago and it had a very slight hesitation that I picked up on. It has a pretty thick, I'm guessing rubber, gasket that I pulled off it. I have some more gasket material I can make a better fitting one out of.

Would I have to worry about an epoxy breaking over time and getting pulled into the head? That's my only worry. Ill take a look into set screws! Also would getting a larger heat plate mean a different size carb would be necessary? Or was the carb hole locations pretty standard and the heat plate size was just different?

 

[frozenrabbit]

It is possible to slow mig weld cast with stainless steel wire. Zap it, let it set, repeat.
Set screws with Loctite bearing lock would be a better choice than epoxy alone. JB weld and other epoxies eventually break down from heat cycles.
Could top the set screws with epoxy just for filler to level the mating surface.

 

[bubba22349]

@bubba22349 I did test with some break clean a week ago and it had a very slight hesitation that I picked up on. It has a pretty thick, I'm guessing rubber, gasket that I pulled off it. I have some more gasket material I can make a better fitting one out of.

Would I have to worry about an epoxy breaking over time and getting pulled into the head? That's my only worry. Ill take a look into set screws! Also would getting a larger heat plate mean a different size carb would be necessary? Or was the carb hole locations pretty standard and the heat plate size was just different?

Rubber would not be good for use as a Carb Base Gasket or for that Heat Plate to the head, so yes make a better fitting one. Some People make a new Plate out of a flat piece of Aluminum, Wood, or a Plastic Cutting board too and there are other items that can work too. V. I. also has a 1V carb adapter made for the large Log to Small Carb base here. https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/1v-carb-adaptor-small-1v-to-large-log

 

[clmriot]

Thanks all for suggestions so far! I got some set screws and put them in the outer holes for now and re-used the old gasket. Started it up and it's idling much better. I'll remake the heat plate gasket and put some permatex on the set screws this weekend (bolt holes don't appear to fully go through the intake). This way I can reuse the holes later if need be.

As for the ticking/squeak, while idling, I slid underneath and got up close to the underside of the engine. No tapping from oil pan, transmission, or front of engine. From underneath the sound is only coming from within the exhaust pipe. I'll pull the valve cover and plugs, then turn the engine over by hand first to listen/watch the valvetrain.