"Groove theory"

[XPC66]

40 PSI on a 2.4 is would actually make more like 600 BHP @ 6500 RPM (for maybe 3 seconds. ) Once again the numbers just jon't add up.

More like 800 hp. Wouldn't necessarily blow if the inlet closing angle is long enough. Finding a turbo that would give that sought of PR is going to be fun. And the pre IC pipes are going to be pretty damned hot ~400°F.

400hp would be better achieved using a much lower PR and better bump stick arrangement. The grooves would be superfluous I would suggest.

 

[fb71]

I have on responce to this; show me.

I'll beleive whatever you tell me, if you back it up with hard data from a dyno and scientific documentation of the modifications. I'm all for advancement, but I am strongly suspicious of any claim not properly substantiated. Show me raw, unmanipulated data, and I will beleive.

I, too, have quite a bit of experience and formal education regarding ICEs, and at one time worked in a technical discipline at Ford Motor Co. I've seen all types of experimental engines/fuels/fuel and ignition management. I don't discount technologies and innovations easily. With that said, I am skeptical of the claims about grooves and other claimed 'technologies'.

 

[Anonymous]

I cant find that link anymore. it was about two years ago.
doesn't matter, just thought it was interesting.

fb71

who are you talking to? If its me then I have no intrest in proving anything or have anything to prove. I imagine if you paid me large sums of money I could figure out ways of giving you data. 8)

I just shared my experience that is all.

 

[fb71]

WG, wasn't really speaking to anyone in particular, just tossing out my two bits. Hope I didn't offend you.

Yes, I agree, it would take an exorbitant amount of time and money to prove a technology. But I would expect a peddler of a given technology to offer it based only on speculation, unless he/she/they have properly tested and documented its performance.

ie; our host, Mike. He offers dyno simulations of his new head as speculation, not fact. He is waiting for dyno recordings to prove out his estimates. That, in my opinion only, is the way it should be done.

 

[Lazy JW]

...
one little tid bit, there is a 2.4l dodge engine with slightly higher than 14:1 comp turbo pushing 40+psi 450 hp on 87 octane gas...

Sounds like the "Big Bang" theory to me

Show me a 40 hp engine in a 2000 lb car that gets a BSFC of .25 lb/hp-hr at 60 mph and I'll be impressed. Really.
Joe

 

[Lazy JW]

I mainly skim the mpgresearch.com page.

regarding the higher compression.........I really wish I would have raised the comp. alot. I want 10:1 to 10.5:1 I really think I could run 87 oct gas with no detonation.

Just for kicks I am looking for some coleman fuel oct rating around 50 to see if it would detonate as is with about 9:1 comp.

I definately think the fordsix old timers are toooo hard headed. There is soooooo much technology out there, if we could just organize it use it and share it....

The hard headed old timers that actually had to run 50 octane fuel used engines having about 5:1 compression or less. Ever hear of Phillips 66? or Union 76? That was the octane rating of their premium fuel "back in the day".

Whatever happened to your propane 300?
Joe

 

[Anonymous]

The hard headed old timers that actually had to run 50 octane fuel used engines having about 5:1 compression or less. Ever hear of Phillips 66? or Union 76? That was the octane rating of their premium fuel "back in the day".

Whatever happened to your propane 300?
Joe[/quote]

I am aware of the old octane #s. Not hard with 5:1 comp. But what does that have to do with an engine at 9-9.5:1 compresssion?

I decided to go with the cummins 4bt diesel. way better fuel efficiency, but much more vibration and noise

 

[Anonymous]

Goat, don't worry about not finding any particular old clipping or thread that you've seen in the past. This happens to me a lot.

But my (limited) observation of the posters at the mpgresearch site remind me of the neighbor kid, a very bright 20-year-old who has been working over his Datsun 510 for two or three years. He gets all his info from other enthusiasts on the internet, some of which is very good. For instance, he bought a MegaSquirt efi kit, and has learned a lot about programming it (something I'll get him to teach me, in future). But because he has spent all his time chatting with young amateurs, he has big gaps in his basic knowledge and frame-of-reference on what is reasonable. So, for instance, he will fit out his little 2L engine with a 4-into-1 racing header with big tubes, add a hot street cam, and wonder why the car won't accelerate from a stoplight. Last night I told him to get to the library and start educating himself (starting with, "The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems", P.H. Smith). He said, "There's a book like that??" Anyway, SO FAR, what I've read on that mpg site puts me in mind of a bunch of high school boys that THINK they know a lot about cars.

(I actually tried to register there so I could straighten out one of their misconceptions about ENGINES, but I'm so clumsy with COMPUTERS that the registration didn't take!! Doh!! And for that matter, I am knowledgable about engines only in relation to young newbies, and come HERE to be properly informed and humiliated, both of which the Sixers do with great glee.)

 

[XPC66]

Compared to pimply faced teenagers, I'm an old timer, but I bet I know more than most of them when it comes to embracing new proven technologies and innovations.

Smithy you should do what I do = when building an engine I have one of the local kids help me.

Gap knowledge isn't just limited to young blokes, I pulled up to fella parked on the side of the road the other day to admire his XP Coupe. His tuner was with him and so I struck up a conversation about his mechanicals.... I didn't understand a lot of what they were prattling on about, but I'm sure it magazine talk, because it wasn't relevent to what I was looking at. After pressing concerns of my apparent ignorance, it was revealed that the tuner couldn't figure out what the the little can on the side of the dizzy was for. I pilfered some hose from the boot, hooked up the vacuum advance, adjusted the timing by sound and voila the engine ran fine for the first time in six months.

 

[StrangeRanger]

Last night I told him to get to the library and start educating himself (starting with, "The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems", P.H. Smith). He said, "There's a book like that??"

Get him to read Sir Harry Ricardo The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine. By the time he published the last edition (1953) Ricardo had forgotten more about how engines work than the rest of us will ever know. That book is quite literally the Old Testament for gearheads.

 

[cliffordthebigredtruck]

Get him to read Sir Harry Ricardo The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine. By the time he published the last edition (1953) Ricardo had forgotten more about how engines work than the rest of us will ever know. That book is quite literally the Old Testament for gearheads.

wha...? A book that old surely can't be relevant to today's engines! :roll:

Sorry, but I will bet you anything that will be the first response you get, should you try to tell anyone under 30 about this book. People have been conditioned by commercials of both car and oil companies, talking about how advanced the new cars are, and how thus-and-such oil is specifically designed for "today's hotter running engines." Add this to the fact that cranky old-timers bemoan the fact that "you just can't work on these newfangled computer-controlled things anymore" and most younger people forget that a 1950-something car shares a large number of its internal parts with a current vehicle, and the physics and mechanical principles are nearly identical.

 

[Thad]

Ricardo's work was showing the benifits of scavenging exhaust while the world was still running straight stacks. Think out of the box, man was ahead the box and pulling it forward.

One of the things he show was valve throat flow using three angle valve seats. Common today but until the late '80s had to be rediscovered.

Some may consider part s of his work old hat and basic, but there is the rub. If you don't understand the basic you will get lost in the more advanced.

NO! you may not borrow my copy. :roll:

 

[StrangeRanger]

Don't forget about his work with the flathead (his Ricardo head outperformed the OHV designs of the day), aero engines (WWII and all that) and the "Comet" stratified-charge Diesel, an engine that still begs to be put into production. It's no exageration to say that every significant improvement in the internal combustion engine prior to about 1960 originated in his workshop.

He presents a series of empirically derived design proportions which yield an optimized engine. The Ford 300 follows those proportions almost exactly. It's pretty obvious that the engineers who designed the BB6 in the early 60s had read their Ricardo.

 

[Anonymous]

As long as we've detoured into grousing about the kids, here's a funny.

I've been looking for a phonographic turntable (a record player, to olde pharts) so I can spray-paint round parts. I didn't want something good, like my old Dual, just a multi-speed cheepie. I inquired around the neighbor hood, checked the thrift stores and Craigslist, and asked anyone I encountered, total strangers. I got some funny looks, and I didn't figure out that they were all from young guys until a fellow in his mid-twenties, a homeowner with a good job, laughs and says, "A turntable? Dude, that's before my time!" Until he said that, it hadn't occurred to me that some of the people I was asking weren't born when 8-tracks were already on their way out.


(I found a turntable for two bucks, missing its drive-belt, for which I substituted an O-ring. Tomorrow I'm going to moly-coat the skirts of some pistons and bake them. Y'all DO remember I told you you could do this, right? Maybe I'll tell the mpgresearch crowd about moly-coating, that it reduces friction 16-22%, and guarantees second-gear chirpies).

 

[Anonymous]

Tomorrow I'm going to moly-coat the skirts of some pistons and bake them. Y'all DO remember I told you you could do this, right? Maybe I'll tell the mpgresearch crowd about moly-coating, that it reduces friction 16-22%, and guarantees second-gear chirpies).

 

[Anonymous]

A different bunch of guys has been discussing the old version of Singh's new grooves, namely, fire-slots in piston domes.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=71623#71623

I just found this site, and it looks promising.