Head gasket issue?

[electrorc]

Hey everyone,
I'm back for some more help

I got my rebuilt engine running for the first time back in January, then left to go back to school. I'm trying to fully finish it now. When it was running, I had issues with it running hot but mostly attributed it to the fact that the car wasn't moving (cam break-in), though it still did it with a box fan. It also didn't want to idle.

While I was gone, the Mustang leaked what ended up being all of its oil (suggestions on fixing the drain plug seal?). When I checked the dipstick there was a tiny bit of foam at the bottom.

I pulled the valve cover this morning just to check and intending to retorque the head bolts. I found a bunch more foam and there were a couple of puddles with a pretty obvious green tint to them.

So now I guess my question is, is it more likely to be a bad or improperly installed head gasket; a result of head bolts bottoming out; or something else? I didn't use any washers under the head bolts but they didn't seem to bottom out (I probably could've easily missed it though). It's a Victor head gasket. Just wanted to check with you guys before I buy a new gasket. I may just try getting some washers and see if that helps anything.

Thanks!

Not very good pic:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27162877@N07/6830459432/

 

[JackFish]

Was the head shaved and how much?
I doubt the bolts are bottoming out.
Some guys have installed the gasket on bass-ackwards.
What type of gasket was it?

Oh never mind I see your sig mentions the 9.5:1 CR!
I checked my bolt holes with a straw. Just compare the depth it goes in with the length of the bolt.

 

[electrorc]

Yeah, the head was milled. Not sure how much, but since it's my old head, it's probably been done at least twice in total. I'm at around a 46cc chamber on a '63 head, so I don't think it's been a whole lot.

It's a Victor gasket.

I'll check the bolt lengths.

 

[CobraSix]

Some guys have installed the gasket on bass-ackwards.

I know you aren't talking about me...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=60093

Have you looked at what's left of your oil? Is it the same color?

My guess is you have a gasket leak and has gotten into the oil. However, if you are going to replace the head bolts, you will need a new gasket regardless, since your gasket has been compressed and it's generally a bad idea to reuse it, even if not damaged. Definitely could be bolts bottoming out, and Jack's method works well.

 

[electrorc]

There really was no oil left. There were a few drips when I pulled the drain plug to try to adjust the gasket but that was it. It looked pretty normal there, just fairly dark. Definitely didn't look like this. Also, on that very rear rocker arm, it's basically pure coolant.

I don't see or feel any overhang like your pictures indicate CobraSix. I was trying to somewhat hurry when I put it together, so it's possible. It looks like I should be able to see that though.

I checked the front right head bolt (#14 in the torque sequence) and as long as other bolt holes aren't different depths, I have plenty of room. There was a good 1/4" extra.

 

[rocklord]

I checked the front right head bolt (#14 in the torque sequence) and as long as other bolt holes aren't different depths, I have plenty of room. There was a good 1/4" extra.

Unless you chased the threads with a square tap, you can't be sure there isn't gunk in them bottoming out your head bolts.
Go ahead and use washers under the head bolts. Won't hurt anything by doing so.
Also replace the head gasket with a new one. They can't be reused.

Are the head bolts you used the original ones or new ones? If they were the old ones they could have some stretch in them. It's cheap insurance to use new bolts.

Let us know what you find.

 

[electrorc]

Alright yeah it looks like it was the head gasket. Finally was able to get a good one in today and got it switched out. Seems to be running a little better now.

Just have to figure out what to do for my other issues... carb seems to be pretty much dead; it's leaking fuel everywhere it possibly can.
And my heater hoses are basically too hot to touch--what would that indicate?

 

[chad]

"... hoses too hot to handle..."

till the carb's right can't tell (too lean can = way hot motor)

 

[rocklord]

Just have to figure out what to do for my other issues... carb seems to be pretty much dead; it's leaking fuel everywhere it possibly can.
And my heater hoses are basically too hot to touch--what would that indicate?

The heater hoses have 180 degree + water running through them. They will be hot to the touch.

Chad is right, your carb could be running lean. Need to check into that.

 

[electrorc]

Haha well I know that; it just seemed odd that they were extremely hot while for instance the upper rad hose was only warm. Seems like they should've been fairly similar in temperature. It has been awhile since I worried about hose temperatures though lol.

Alright, yeah I'm trying to figure out what to do for my carb. I can get a rebuilt one here tomorrow from O'Reilly's, but I was really hoping to get it figured out today... hmm.

Thanks for the help again everyone

 

[MPGmustang]

the heat hoses will be hotter than the rad hoses, because it's running ALL the time, the rad won't get hot until the t-stat opens all the way, but it will soon close. so what you realized is a perfect working cooling/heating system

gratz on the gasket replacement, they do make a mess when the really want to.

on the carb, have you thought of rebuilding one? it is cheap... usually only 1hr of your time and a $20 rebuild kit. I myself was very apprehensive on rebuilding one just cause I've never done it. now have done 6 carbs!! I'm on a roll... the simplest thing to do is just simply put it back together the same way you took it apart, like replacing the head gasket, just smaller peices.

 

[chad]

Thanks for the help again everyone
Yeah, it aint done yet, tho...

Rich & Dan sez it's colder cuz it just came outta the radiator.

There's some on-line exploded views of carbs...might find yourn & could guide U thru a rebuild. I'd never done 1 till the guys here saved me $250 and days rebuildin what I had (C sig below - I still need 3 prts)...
U can trust em, they know their stuff, just gotta follow directions'n go in sequence (1st comes B4 2nd & 6th comes after 5th)...
8^0

 

[electrorc]

the heat hoses will be hotter than the rad hoses, because it's running ALL the time, the rad won't get hot until the t-stat opens all the way, but it will soon close. so what you realized is a perfect working cooling/heating system

Ah right, I didn't think about that. Makes good sense.

Well this is getting rather frustrating. I did consider rebuilding the carb, but I thought it would take 6+ hours to where I wouldn't really have time for it. So I ordered a rebuilt one and it came in this morning. It ended up being for an automatic and also had the hot-air choke setup. Eventually I found a manual conversion kit, came home to install it, and discovered that the new carb wasn't threaded for the SCV. Took it back and ordered a rebuild kit like I should've in the first place.

So now I'm waiting on that to come in, then I'll see if I can get it rebuilt and running right so that I can get it inspected and tags renewed before everywhere closes. Last chance to finish it before I graduate...


Edit: Well that didn't do it. Got it rebuilt, float adjusted, and pump lever adjusted, but it still leaks like crazy. Hmmm. Guessing something must be warped or I'm just horrible at rebuilding...

Edit 2: It's definitely flooding itself... I tightened it up a little more, tried starting it with no air cleaner, and it started then died and you could see gas come up from the carb. Then if you look down in the carb with it just sitting there, fuel was just continually dripping into the barrel and puddling up. I couldn't get the float level at the correct height, but I set the highest point to 1 3/32".

Edit 3: Got the carb fixed I think. I adjusted the float so it's a little out of spec, but it's not flooding anymore. I had someone help me and we got rid of the filter that screws into the carb as the nut on it was hitting the carb body and preventing a good seal. We added a generic inline filter to the line.
So that seems fine now. But it still overheats after running for like 5 minutes.

 

[chad]

I certainly honor ur perseverance. That's the shade tree (may B all) mechanics' mantra! AND U R learning esp. re how this thang works...
One idea may B to go a lill backwards to the beginning. Not sure you've done this but check the castings on the motor and head to find a lill more certain what you have here (yr., displacement, etc). Stock replacements wrk best. (we seen some guys buy/junk yrd it the wrong prts and attempt to get them 2 wrk). For added performance checking in here or locally (trusted knowledgeable neighbors) may work as well. My suggestion w/that is to check out a few but stick w/one when that relationship is developed (trust). "Bouncing around' between mechanics can B expensive (X & $) as 1 redoes what another did. Stayin w/1 "he" knows where things R @ due to "no 1 else messin w/it" & can pick up from there w/o alot of guess wrk.
Anyway, U prob know all this, just good 2 C U stickin w/it!
(BTW: never rebuilt a carb, guys here walked me thru it. Wrks great now...)

 

[electrorc]

I certainly honor ur perseverance. That's the shade tree (may B all) mechanics' mantra! AND U R learning esp. re how this thang works...
One idea may B to go a lill backwards to the beginning. Not sure you've done this but check the castings on the motor and head to find a lill more certain what you have here (yr., displacement, etc). Stock replacements wrk best. (we seen some guys buy/junk yrd it the wrong prts and attempt to get them 2 wrk). For added performance checking in here or locally (trusted knowledgeable neighbors) may work as well. My suggestion w/that is to check out a few but stick w/one when that relationship is developed (trust). "Bouncing around' between mechanics can B expensive (X & $) as 1 redoes what another did. Stayin w/1 "he" knows where things R @ due to "no 1 else messin w/it" & can pick up from there w/o alot of guess wrk.
Anyway, U prob know all this, just good 2 C U stickin w/it!
(BTW: never rebuilt a carb, guys here walked me thru it. Wrks great now...)

Thanks Chad. Yep I'm definitely learning a lot about this car, I think the front suspension is about the only thing I haven't touched, and that will have its turn haha.
I've got a '66 200 block, '63 head and exhaust manifold, and '64 carb. Not the best combo but shouldn't be presenting any issues.
As far as help goes, that's definitely right. Most stuff I just check with family, a couple of friends, or on here. I haven't found a shop I really like yet, and I try to stick with doing everything myself if I can.


And I have good and bad news.
The good:

• I removed the thermostat entirely and my overheating issues went away. It stayed mostly between 1/4 and 1/2 on the gauge and never boiled over. So it looks like I had some issue with that one.
• I drove it around the block and it was fine, so I drove it to the shop for the state inspection and it passed with no problem.
• Seems to run pretty well and I accidentally discovered it can spin the tires pretty easily lol (at least in reverse... left some nice marks on the driveway).

And the bad:

• I stopped for gas after the inspection and it wouldn't restart. Eventually it just flooded and the carb had fuel all over it.
• I let it sit for a bit and then tried it again. Ultimately ended up with just a clunk, no turning over.
• The starter solenoid started smoking.
• It restarted with its oil drain plug leak that I thought I fixed.

I ended up getting it towed back home. I may mess with it a little more today, but I won't be able to drive it back to school. I really appreciate all the help and support everyone.

 

[wsa111]

Before you do anything, remove all the spark plugs.
Turn the engine over by hand, sounds like you have a possible hydrostatic lock condition with a full cylinder of fuel which will not compress.
I maybe wrong, but i bet you will see fuel or coolant spew out of one cylinder.
Hopefully your starter is not fried. Best of luck, Bill

 

[chad]

It restarted with its oil drain plug leak that I thought I fixed.

That doesn't mean it's running? it means the dp began leaking again? (sorry, need help, I can't think too good)
8^0

 

[turbo2256b]

Sounds like the float and or needle and seat isnt set up properly

 

[64falconsix]

I had a oil plug leak and tried several different gaskets with no fix until I found one at the auto parts store in the help section that looks like a washer with a rubber gasket molded in the center. They comr 2 to a box for around $3.00.

 

[electrorc]

It restarted with its oil drain plug leak that I thought I fixed.

That doesn't mean it's running? it means the dp began leaking again? (sorry, need help, I can't think too good)
8^0

Sorry, yeah I didn't word that very well. The oil pan drain plug just started leaking again.

turbo2256b: That's what it seems to me, or at least partially. But I did set the float to spec, then tried lowering it to a couple different positions after it flooded. And it mostly is okay, just every once in awhile it floods entirely. Needle seemed to be sealing, but maybe it just wasn't quite good enough.

64falconsix, thanks! I'll try to remember that and see if I can find it sometime. Right now I have an old gasket on there as it was a lot better than the new one I had when I first finished it, but it's still not perfect.

Bill, I did pull a few of the plugs (but not all) and they all seemed okay.

It's going back in the garage tomorrow since I have to get back to school for classes on Monday. One day it'll be drivable lol.