HELP!! Bellhousing info!

Von Writter

Well-known member
Hi All; :D
I am wondering if there is any info out there about the exact spacing of the bolt holes and alignment pins relative to the crankshafts exact center line on the block of the Ford 250. I'm engaged in an interesting projest which uses a IL6 250 for a WWI German Fighter plane, Fokker DVII model. I was going to use a Ford 300 6 but it was a tad bit too heavy for the job soo the 250 will work out just great! I need to make an adapter plate for the re-drive I'm mounting and it needs to be positioned exactly concentric with the center of the crank and bolted down there. I can't get and info from Ford (suprise Suprise) But I was hoping some of you guys might be able to help me out? Any help will be appreciated greatly.
Regards;
Troy Wright.
 
I can If I figgure out how :) Does anyone know what harmonic balancer I can use on a 250? Will a Ford 302 one fit? I can't seam to get my local parts store to find one :roll:



WhitePony":17kteab8 said:
WOW! Tha's a cool application of a Ford six. Think
you could post some pics when you get further along?

Kris
 
If you use an internally balanced damper, the 289/302 version will fit the 250, but you won't have grooves for the belt. In your application, that may not be an issue.

In an aircraft application you'll want a good damper. Constant sustained speeds at 50-75% power will cause a lot of resonance in the crank.

Don't you think the 250 is going to be a bit underpowered for an aircraft engine? At sea level you might be looking at 150 hp @ 4200 with a noticeable decrease at higher altitudes and temps. Swinging a really big prop thru a PSRU might amplify those power drops, won't they?
 
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not clear on what an Internally balanced Damper is? I will need to run some accessories such as the Alt. and water pump so I guess I still need a source for a good Harmonic Balancer. As for the power issue, with a few modifications I think 165-170 hp is not unrealistic, but if 150 hp is the reality then with the PSRU it will still come out to around 430 hp at the prop flange, which is Plenty :D The flying one does in an open cockpit biplane rerely exceeds 6000 ft AMSL so I'm not to worried about the power. If I can get a reliable 170 hp out of the engine I'll be getting almost 500hp at the prop flange and around 625ft lb of torque. The PSRU actually increases these values as opposed to decreasing them.
Regards;
Troy W.

MustangSix":l6ipkbm9 said:
If you use an internally balanced damper, the 289/302 version will fit the 250, but you won't have grooves for the belt. In your application, that may not be an issue.

In an aircraft application you'll want a good damper. Constant sustained speeds at 50-75% power will cause a lot of resonance in the crank.

Don't you think the 250 is going to be a bit underpowered for an aircraft engine? At sea level you might be looking at 150 hp @ 4200 with a noticeable decrease at higher altitudes and temps. Swinging a really big prop thru a PSRU might amplify those power drops, won't they?
 
I think 165-170 hp is not unrealistic, but if 150 hp is the reality then with the PSRU it will still come out to around 430 hp at the prop flange, which is Plenty The flying one does in an open cockpit biplane rerely exceeds 6000 ft AMSL so I'm not to worried about the power. If I can get a reliable 170 hp out of the engine I'll be getting almost 500hp at the prop flange and around 625ft lb of torque. The PSRU actually increases these values as opposed to decreasing them.


OK Troy, I'm a bit confused. A PSRU, or "Propeller Speed Reduction Unit" is really just a fancy name for a single ratio gear, chain or belt reduction unit. You won't increase the HP by reducing the RPM. What you WILL do though is increase the efective propeller torque at any given engine RPM by using a PSRU. If you look at the following formula, you can see that while the engine is producing a constant HP at a specific crank RPM, the PSRU will affect the TORQUE and not the HP that is applied to the prop.

TORQUE = HP x 5252 ÷ RPM

So, if your engine is producing say 150HP at 3300 RPM, you would be producing 238.72 lb-ft of torque.

150 X 5252 ÷ 3300 = 238.727272.....

If you reduce that RPM by say 50% in a 2:1 reduction PSRU The formula would look like this:

150 X 5252 ÷ 1650 = 477.454545.....

Yor torque at the prop would then be 477.45 lb-ft, but the HP is still 150.

I'd be concerned about one other bit of info that I found concerning the load model of an automotive engine in an aircraft application:

The automotive load model deserves mention here, because some products use critical parts taken from automotive systems. Be aware that, depending on the aerodynamics of your vehicle, it only takes between 30 and 60 HP to move your car along the road at 60 MPH. Doubt that? My station wagon gets 21 MPG at a steady 60 MPH. That's a fuel burn of 17.1 pounds per hour. Assuming a BSFC of 0.42, the engine is producing 40.8 HP at that fuel burn. Certainly, more power is required for acceleration and hill-climbing, but if you think about it, most of the operational time in your vehicle is spent in some form of cruise.

Most automotive propulsion systems are designed around a load model in which the maximum rated load occurs during only 5% to 10% of the design life, and 75% or more of the design life is at less than 25% of maximum output. Compare that model to an aircraft load model in which a large portion of the operation (90% or more) is at an engine power output of more than 75% of rated engine power. Contemplation of that fundamental difference should give an insight into why automotive parts are generally unsuitable for use at their rated level in aircraft applications
.

Not trying to discourage you, but that 250 may not last long at those kinds of loads.

Kris
 
Hi Kris, I stand corrected on the HP issue. As for the load concern you expressed, We have already taken that into consideration. The functioning of the PRSU (easy short way of writihg prop re-drive) can be likened to a two bicyclers. One is a huge bruiser who is pumping slowly up a steep hill pounding it with his tree trunk legs which have to endure tremendous strain. If a skinny little shrimp were forced to do this, (besides the fact he couldnt) It would breack his legs pull muscles etc... But give that same skinney little guy a bicycle with the proper gears and he could easly keep pace with the big bruiser and would not be experiencing / feeling the strain like his big friend would. His little legs would be spinning like mad but the "Strain" would not be "felt" the same.
Clear as mud right :D I have many friends using auto engine conversions with PSRUs for many hours of flight time with no problems. Some of them are running 100hp. + VW engines with 2.47/1 ratios and turning BIG props just fine with excellent reliability. If it weren't for the PSRU your concern about load would be very valid. As it is an engine used in an aircraft application would not have as long a life but it will still serve nicely.
Regards;
Troy W.


OK Troy, I'm a bit confused. A PSRU, or "Propeller Speed Reduction Unit" is really just a fancy name for a single ratio gear, chain or belt reduction unit. You won't increase the HP by reducing the RPM. What you WILL do though is increase the efective propeller torque at any given engine RPM by using a PSRU. If you look at the following formula, you can see that while the engine is producing a constant HP at a specific crank RPM, the PSRU will affect the TORQUE and not the HP that is applied to the prop.

TORQUE = HP x 5252 ÷ RPM

So, if your engine is producing say 150HP at 3300 RPM, you would be producing 238.72 lb-ft of torque.

150 X 5252 ÷ 3300 = 238.727272.....

If you reduce that RPM by say 50% in a 2:1 reduction PSRU The formula would look like this:

150 X 5252 ÷ 1650 = 477.454545.....

Yor torque at the prop would then be 477.45 lb-ft, but the HP is still 150.

I'd be concerned about one other bit of info that I found concerning the load model of an automotive engine in an aircraft application:

The automotive load model deserves mention here, because some products use critical parts taken from automotive systems. Be aware that, depending on the aerodynamics of your vehicle, it only takes between 30 and 60 HP to move your car along the road at 60 MPH. Doubt that? My station wagon gets 21 MPG at a steady 60 MPH. That's a fuel burn of 17.1 pounds per hour. Assuming a BSFC of 0.42, the engine is producing 40.8 HP at that fuel burn. Certainly, more power is required for acceleration and hill-climbing, but if you think about it, most of the operational time in your vehicle is spent in some form of cruise.

Most automotive propulsion systems are designed around a load model in which the maximum rated load occurs during only 5% to 10% of the design life, and 75% or more of the design life is at less than 25% of maximum output. Compare that model to an aircraft load model in which a large portion of the operation (90% or more) is at an engine power output of more than 75% of rated engine power. Contemplation of that fundamental difference should give an insight into why automotive parts are generally unsuitable for use at their rated level in aircraft applications
.

Not trying to discourage you, but that 250 may not last long at those kinds of loads.

Kris[/quote]
 
Try to get a hold of Ben Haas, he a has a 302 in a CH 801. He is in Jackson Hole, WY.

I think "Belted air power" and "Geschwender" both make redrives that fit a small block ford/ 250 ford bell pattern.
 
Hey thanks, I talked to them but the PSRU was offset not inline with the crank :cry: I'll be using a drive from Tracey Crook. http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Gear_red_intro.htm

Still looking for a source for a good Harmonic balancer for the 250 though! Found it for the 200 but not the 250 :cry:
Regards;
Troy W.



Linc's 200":yb78rbne said:
Try to get a hold of Ben Haas, he a has a 302 in a CH
801. He is in Jackson Hole, WY.

I think "Belted air power" and "Geschwender" both make redrives that fit a small block ford/ 250 ford bell pattern.
 
Von Writter":7f3ye3we said:
Still looking for a source for a good Harmonic balancer for the 250 though! Found it for the 200 but not the 250


They will not interchange?
 
No. The 250 balancer is a larger OD and the nose on the crank is larger, too. It's a US-specific part; there are good (really good) balancers for the Oz 250 but the crank nose is smaller.
 
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