kevinl1058
Well-known member
How involved would it be to add injectors to the log runner, and run 3 throttle bodies. Basically an injected tri-power.
Injecting a 200
- Thread starter kevinl1058
- Start date
touchpad won't let me paste a link, but search for "injected" then refine with "log", look for "log gets injected".
I believe this is the thread:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27536&p=462982&hilit=log+gets+injected#p462982
Not much room for the injectors.
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27536&p=462982&hilit=log+gets+injected#p462982
Not much room for the injectors.
i want to do something like this, but a little different http://www.classicinlines.com/images/Te ... 4_JPG.html
there was an injected convertible falcon for sale just like that up in sac last year. While metering improves a lot, it has the same log issues of running rich in 3/4, and lean in 1/6. A dual or triple TB with a split log head would probably work better as it breathes better and stays mixed getter to. Much more difficult to implement though.
Here's what we should be looking at getting...Paying up front for a cost less in the long run professional EFI system
Remember, Mike has paved the way on getting the best bang for the buck.
This rail is a key component, and it has been worked off a duplicate Dastun L-series six item which is of similar dimensions. It's time to duplicate it, and get into port EFi!
Unless you are really smart, you won't do as well as the system above for the money, because the maker can put together packages far more economically for the money than us making a subset of raided parts.
The work that has gone into the CI head in the injector rail can be transferred to the log head, and any TBI, or Port EFI set up should run with the common 123 to 262 EEC4 and EEC5 six cylinder calibrations from 4 liter injected six cylinder Explorers, Rangers and Falcons made from 1988 to 2011. Once a base map is set up, it can be fine tuned to suit the bore, stroke, rocker, ignition and headflow differences.
I think we are all over thinking things because of the "what profit for what cost" questions we all have. TBI or CFI has some issues I'd like to cover, then I tell you what I'm doing in regards to drag 200's awesome idea of combining EFI to the log head as depicted in the pictures below and the link to his first discsussion of the idea back in 2006.
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27536&p=462982&hilit=log+gets+injected#p462982
TBi/CFi, a trick system that is gaining popularity again
Basically, make a non turbo base Ford 200 with single point Cnrysler K car or HSC Tempo/Topaz/Tracer/Taurus EFI and stock cam could max out at about 110 to 125 hp with a nice set of headers. Over here in 1988- 1990 3.2 AND 3.9 Ford Falcons in Australia and New Zealand, we have the EECiv system with 123 to 162 hp CFI engine. It uses the common one injector Chryser K car, HSC Tempo/Topaz/Tracer/Taurus EFI Nissan two injector VG30e Pathfinder/Navara and one injector Geo Metro style injector.
This injector is really versitile, and is also used in the new Stromberg CD 175 AFI/ FAST Injector which is retro fitted to lots of English US import twin carb sports cars...the Triumph TR's, the MG BGT'S, the Midget. And also the Jag XKE and even the Datsun 240Z and 260Z before they got Datsuns factory L28 EFI. So you could run two or three CD 175's with three Geo Metro injectors from any three cylinder Geo TBI variant from 1992 to 1997. It uses voltage variance to raise of lower the flow rate, so its not a strictly digital system, its an Analogue/ Digital set up. Its got tune for the first ODB2 Geo Metros, and of course, then non ODB2 Front drive US HSC i-4 ohv Ford, or Aussie SOHC Falcon CFI or V6 Nissan pickup or Geo computer stratergy could be copied into a Mega Squirt or other proprietry computer.
That means a minimum of 60 hp per Geo injector. Two would give about 120 hp and great A/F ratios on a log head. Three of the Geo 3 cylinder suckers could yield 180 hp, or you could make it staged, and fire up to 330 to 486 hp with the Aussie CFI units.
The limits are only your abilities to engineer. Problem is the stock injectors aren't like stock carb jets, and even items like Bosch Siemens port injectors aren't repeatable for flow. Any two can vary by 10% for TBi or port EFI unless you spend money on close limit injectors.
But I could see anything from 1 to 6 injector CFI systems working real good in a turbo, supercharged, nitrous or stock to wild Ford six log or Classic Inlines head. Any thing from 110 to 486 odd without any real issues.
Port EFI...the new Ideal
Now, the kicker is that for good throttle body flowrate to supply enough air for the injectors, the stock 1-bbl 1.3, 1.5 or 1.75" hole is pretty limited. They are 33, 38 and 45 mm throttle body equivalents. An EFI 4.9 truck engine in the F150 needs two 48 mm throttle bodies to get 165 to 170 hp.
Going to direct mount 2-bbl would open things up. Stock Port injected Aussie Fords ran about 65 to 75 mm throttle bodies, and six ports needed 1.33" to supply 149 to 162 hp from 1982 to 1987. Later, they used 62 to 75 mm to get 185 to 262 hp.
Now, the standard Offy or Edlebrock systems are pitifully restrictive,and the outer two 1'barrels holes are too small compared to the inner barrel, but that asside, its a great port EFI start.
On those, 1.09" is the max diameter for the outer holes, 1.3,1.5 to 1.75" for the inner 1-bbl depending on small, dog turd or flat top log. The equivalent throttle body size on a small 1.3 log head is 0.933+, 1.327+0.933 =3.19 sq inches, or 52 mm, way to small for even 100 hp.
On a 1.5" log head, the equivalent throttle body size is 0.933+ 1.767+0.933=3.633 sq inches, or 59 mm equivalent to one throttle body.
On a 1.75" log head, 0.933+ 2.405+0.933=4.271 sq inches, or 69 mm equivalent to one throttle body.
A bare minium throttle body area of a stock direct mount 2-bbl 350 is 1.767 sq in or 28.5 mm
A 2-bbl 500 is 2.236 sq in, or 36 mm.
So a stock 2-bbl 2300 350 and 500 Holley won't be enough for port injection to flow well enough without restricting dynamics. TBI injection is different to port EFI in this respect, it requires good, stable air flow to cope with port injection.
If you ran three 350 throttle bodies, it would be the same as one 85 mm thottle body, probably a little too big for a 160hp log engine. If you ran two 350cfm throttle bodies, 57 mm. Two 500 cfm throttle bodies, 72 mm. Generally, Explorer 4.0s and GT40 engined Ford 5.0's ran from 62 to 75 mm thottle bodies, and a log head just has to reach these figures for total port area for air flow. So thats okay for 205 to 350 hp of any engine without too many concerns.
They key now is to making sure drag 200s type of injector set up can work with an Offy/Edlebrock or twin carb Mustang Geezer style intake design.
That way you get to that is copying a) the Classic Inlines fuel rail onto the log head, and
b) opening up the log head to take six ports of the same size.
c) If you use a Weber 38 2-BBL throttle body, you can make up to 85 mm throttle body equivalent, and that can be down sized usings some trickey to use three Chrylser TBi thottle bodies, like three of the Spectre Performance Maverick TBi units mounted in a similar way, with just enough room to fit six injectors like Classic Inlines alloy head injector bungs. Remember, the Mopar K car and HolleyCarter/Holley Weber 5200/5120/6500/6520 /Weber 32/36 DGAV and Weber 38 DGES are all the same bolt pattern, and as long as the injectors are cleared, you have a 200 to 390 cfm at 3"Hg flow rate throttle body from any Vega, Pinto, Escort, K car.
This is where I've been heading with my triple carb throttle NCHO-6V log head adaptor since back in June 2011. I sat back, and realised that the log is okay as long as the EFI system has enough even air flow.
With drag-200stang's knowledge, Classic Inlines poineering work, it looks like I can now use stock Australian factory EEC 4 and EEC 5 non OBD2 computers to give any log or Classic Inlines engine at least 200 hp from the 3.9 and 4.0 liter SOHC Australian or Explorer engines, or two 48 mm throttle bodies from the US 4.9. The injector rail is an aftermarket ex Datsun 240/260/280 one, and it just clears three throttle bodies. What's even better, you don't even need 3 throttle bodies, you could use an Offy/Edelbrock, and run a transition piece of one factory Ford 62 mm 4.0 SOHC/ 5.0 V8 unit
Remember, Mike has paved the way on getting the best bang for the buck.
This rail is a key component, and it has been worked off a duplicate Dastun L-series six item which is of similar dimensions. It's time to duplicate it, and get into port EFi!
Unless you are really smart, you won't do as well as the system above for the money, because the maker can put together packages far more economically for the money than us making a subset of raided parts.
The work that has gone into the CI head in the injector rail can be transferred to the log head, and any TBI, or Port EFI set up should run with the common 123 to 262 EEC4 and EEC5 six cylinder calibrations from 4 liter injected six cylinder Explorers, Rangers and Falcons made from 1988 to 2011. Once a base map is set up, it can be fine tuned to suit the bore, stroke, rocker, ignition and headflow differences.
I think we are all over thinking things because of the "what profit for what cost" questions we all have. TBI or CFI has some issues I'd like to cover, then I tell you what I'm doing in regards to drag 200's awesome idea of combining EFI to the log head as depicted in the pictures below and the link to his first discsussion of the idea back in 2006.
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27536&p=462982&hilit=log+gets+injected#p462982
TBi/CFi, a trick system that is gaining popularity again
Basically, make a non turbo base Ford 200 with single point Cnrysler K car or HSC Tempo/Topaz/Tracer/Taurus EFI and stock cam could max out at about 110 to 125 hp with a nice set of headers. Over here in 1988- 1990 3.2 AND 3.9 Ford Falcons in Australia and New Zealand, we have the EECiv system with 123 to 162 hp CFI engine. It uses the common one injector Chryser K car, HSC Tempo/Topaz/Tracer/Taurus EFI Nissan two injector VG30e Pathfinder/Navara and one injector Geo Metro style injector.
This injector is really versitile, and is also used in the new Stromberg CD 175 AFI/ FAST Injector which is retro fitted to lots of English US import twin carb sports cars...the Triumph TR's, the MG BGT'S, the Midget. And also the Jag XKE and even the Datsun 240Z and 260Z before they got Datsuns factory L28 EFI. So you could run two or three CD 175's with three Geo Metro injectors from any three cylinder Geo TBI variant from 1992 to 1997. It uses voltage variance to raise of lower the flow rate, so its not a strictly digital system, its an Analogue/ Digital set up. Its got tune for the first ODB2 Geo Metros, and of course, then non ODB2 Front drive US HSC i-4 ohv Ford, or Aussie SOHC Falcon CFI or V6 Nissan pickup or Geo computer stratergy could be copied into a Mega Squirt or other proprietry computer.
That means a minimum of 60 hp per Geo injector. Two would give about 120 hp and great A/F ratios on a log head. Three of the Geo 3 cylinder suckers could yield 180 hp, or you could make it staged, and fire up to 330 to 486 hp with the Aussie CFI units.
The limits are only your abilities to engineer. Problem is the stock injectors aren't like stock carb jets, and even items like Bosch Siemens port injectors aren't repeatable for flow. Any two can vary by 10% for TBi or port EFI unless you spend money on close limit injectors.
But I could see anything from 1 to 6 injector CFI systems working real good in a turbo, supercharged, nitrous or stock to wild Ford six log or Classic Inlines head. Any thing from 110 to 486 odd without any real issues.
Port EFI...the new Ideal
Now, the kicker is that for good throttle body flowrate to supply enough air for the injectors, the stock 1-bbl 1.3, 1.5 or 1.75" hole is pretty limited. They are 33, 38 and 45 mm throttle body equivalents. An EFI 4.9 truck engine in the F150 needs two 48 mm throttle bodies to get 165 to 170 hp.
Going to direct mount 2-bbl would open things up. Stock Port injected Aussie Fords ran about 65 to 75 mm throttle bodies, and six ports needed 1.33" to supply 149 to 162 hp from 1982 to 1987. Later, they used 62 to 75 mm to get 185 to 262 hp.
Now, the standard Offy or Edlebrock systems are pitifully restrictive,and the outer two 1'barrels holes are too small compared to the inner barrel, but that asside, its a great port EFI start.
On those, 1.09" is the max diameter for the outer holes, 1.3,1.5 to 1.75" for the inner 1-bbl depending on small, dog turd or flat top log. The equivalent throttle body size on a small 1.3 log head is 0.933+, 1.327+0.933 =3.19 sq inches, or 52 mm, way to small for even 100 hp.
On a 1.5" log head, the equivalent throttle body size is 0.933+ 1.767+0.933=3.633 sq inches, or 59 mm equivalent to one throttle body.
On a 1.75" log head, 0.933+ 2.405+0.933=4.271 sq inches, or 69 mm equivalent to one throttle body.
A bare minium throttle body area of a stock direct mount 2-bbl 350 is 1.767 sq in or 28.5 mm
A 2-bbl 500 is 2.236 sq in, or 36 mm.
So a stock 2-bbl 2300 350 and 500 Holley won't be enough for port injection to flow well enough without restricting dynamics. TBI injection is different to port EFI in this respect, it requires good, stable air flow to cope with port injection.
If you ran three 350 throttle bodies, it would be the same as one 85 mm thottle body, probably a little too big for a 160hp log engine. If you ran two 350cfm throttle bodies, 57 mm. Two 500 cfm throttle bodies, 72 mm. Generally, Explorer 4.0s and GT40 engined Ford 5.0's ran from 62 to 75 mm thottle bodies, and a log head just has to reach these figures for total port area for air flow. So thats okay for 205 to 350 hp of any engine without too many concerns.
They key now is to making sure drag 200s type of injector set up can work with an Offy/Edlebrock or twin carb Mustang Geezer style intake design.
That way you get to that is copying a) the Classic Inlines fuel rail onto the log head, and
b) opening up the log head to take six ports of the same size.
c) If you use a Weber 38 2-BBL throttle body, you can make up to 85 mm throttle body equivalent, and that can be down sized usings some trickey to use three Chrylser TBi thottle bodies, like three of the Spectre Performance Maverick TBi units mounted in a similar way, with just enough room to fit six injectors like Classic Inlines alloy head injector bungs. Remember, the Mopar K car and HolleyCarter/Holley Weber 5200/5120/6500/6520 /Weber 32/36 DGAV and Weber 38 DGES are all the same bolt pattern, and as long as the injectors are cleared, you have a 200 to 390 cfm at 3"Hg flow rate throttle body from any Vega, Pinto, Escort, K car.
This is where I've been heading with my triple carb throttle NCHO-6V log head adaptor since back in June 2011. I sat back, and realised that the log is okay as long as the EFI system has enough even air flow.
With drag-200stang's knowledge, Classic Inlines poineering work, it looks like I can now use stock Australian factory EEC 4 and EEC 5 non OBD2 computers to give any log or Classic Inlines engine at least 200 hp from the 3.9 and 4.0 liter SOHC Australian or Explorer engines, or two 48 mm throttle bodies from the US 4.9. The injector rail is an aftermarket ex Datsun 240/260/280 one, and it just clears three throttle bodies. What's even better, you don't even need 3 throttle bodies, you could use an Offy/Edelbrock, and run a transition piece of one factory Ford 62 mm 4.0 SOHC/ 5.0 V8 unit
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