Is it possible to run a 200c rank in a 250 block

Anlushac11

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I was thinking and was wondering if the main bearing journals were same size between 200 and 250?

I thought that info used to be in the tech section but I cant fins it now. Im at work so Haynes manual isnt handy.

I was thinking of a 250 block and a 200 with really long rods for excellent bore to rod ratio.
 
8) according to the current ford racing parts catalog, the answer is no. the main journals are different sizes, 2.24 for the 200 vs. 2.39 for the 250.
 
8)

IIRC there used to be a bearing kit to drop a small journal 350 crank in a Chevy 400 block to make a 377cid.

Wonder if it would be possible for our motors.

I think a long rod 200 with something like a Oz-250 or Mikes head and proper cam to maximize effects could make serious power.
 
8) having a long rod engine isnt as important as proper parts selection. match the parts to the rpm range you are going to run in, and things will fall into place nicely.
 
The only "destroker" with merit is the 188, using a 170 seven main crank (rare!) in a 200 block. Light, and will spin very happily.
 
No, in 95% of the cases, destroked engines are not cost effective because the bore to stroke, rod ratio, piston and optimum cam shaft combinations requie a high degree of understanding.

Listen carefully, this is a very simple concept, but its vital you understand the details.

Yes, its possible, I've done the same thing with a small journal 221 crank. The problem is the crankshaft flange and rope seal on the 250 block are much bigger. Its 3.4" on the 144/170/188/200/221, but 3.62" on the 250. There is no problem putting a 1981-1984 164 teeth big bell flexplate or flywheel on a 200 crank, as there is a difference in the six bolts pitch ...2.75" on the little 144/170/188/200/221, but 3" on the 250.

The economic solution is to

1a) weld up the crank, and have it machined back, or

1b) shrink fit and weld a piece of steel to get make up the difference. I've tried a special block insert from very hard steel, but it galls, and leaks, and is very hard to pin into the block.

2a ) The main bearing size is easily sorted by Aussie 7 Mains method of applying the 200 main bearings to the 250 main bearings. You linish off the babbit coating to make sure the faces are as perfect as possible. One bearing fits inside the other perfectly! This is actually a Smokey Yunick trick for placing a small journal 283/302/327 crank into a post 1968 large journal Chevy block. It beats machining up special shell to suit, as there are issues with machining acuracy which

2b) I had the crank set up in a lathe, and had may machinist do a long run, down hand eutectic weld, and then got the crank machined back to 250 size main bearings.

3) To fit the US 250 engine, the US 200 crank also needs a modification to fit the 250 crank gear on the 200 snout. Our Aussie 250 engines run the US 200/221 timing gear, one less thing to do.

Results? Not running yet in my installation.

The real issue in your case is that you loose 25% torque (250 goes to 200), and gain only about 5% in specific power, tops. So your down 20% on power everywhere, no matter what you do. You could make it up by a radical cam, but the heavier engine block is costing 2% from weight alone.

I did a desktop check of likely power gain in my engine 56 thou over 228 cub engine, and the swap made up for the 10% loss in capacity. Details are that a 3.46" stroke 221 crank in a 250 with 6.27" rods will produce as much power as a 3.91" stroke 250 crank with 5.88" rods because the rod ratio, bore to stroke ratio, and ideal rev range are all 10% better than the 250. You loose 10% torque, but no power at all. You gain 5% from improving the rod ratio from 1.51:1 to 1.80:1. You gain 2.5% from the bore to stroke ratio, and you gain the balance by optimising the combustion chamber by having a much shallower or even flat top piston. The flame travel and basic flow of the small ports of any 250 engines head are better suited to smaller engine. There are also valve train and crank harmonics which are less on smaller engines, and there is evidence that longievity and power is slightly better on smaller engines. For instance, in the old Mini world, the 1100 cc long stroke engine was never as long lasting as the far less torquey but almost as powerfull 998 cc engine.


As a background, David Vizard discussed this at length in his Mini books. The collective wisdom in my summary of what he said is that optimum engine size for power is about 10% less by destroking than the blocks biggest production option. So a 302 likes to be a 289, a 350 is better as a 327, a 250 is better as a 221, and the Mini 1275cc is better as a 1071cc.

Any desktop program will validate these statements, its not hot air.
 
8) remember though that david vizard was dealing with racing applications when he made the statement regarding smaller engines. for the street the longer stroke will have a much better torque curve than the same bore but shorter stroke engine. case in point, on most race tracks the 289 is indeed a better overall powerplant to race with than the 302 as it revs quicker, and turns tighter than an equivalent 302. it also uses slightly less fuel than the 302. however the 302 flat works better on the street and on tight race courses than the 289 due to its better torque curve in the lower rpm range. though the 289 does better on fuel economy regardless.

for the street it is tough to beat a long stroke engine, as the only real advantage the longer rod engine has is fuel economy, and that can be reduced a bit as the longer stroke engine requires less cam timing to make power than the shorter stroke engine does.
 
Yes, a US 200 crank can be put in a US 250.

Why put a 200 crank in a 250 block? Most of you know that I am about turbo hp. The 250 block has a significantly stronger deck. Read - less blown head gaskets at high boost.

The turbocharger I had was in the 55% efficiency island at lower boost. At higher boost levels, more hp can be made and still keep it in a decent efficiency island. Today's turbochargers are cheap enough that it's not an issue. At the time they were quite expensive. Couldn't afford to upgrade to a larger turbo.

Aluminum rods are very favorable for high rpm usage on iron crank shafts. Absorbs vibration, saving the crank. They will not fit in a 200 block as they hit the cam shaft and the lower cylinder wall without significant clearancing. In the 250 block, the cam is farther away from the crank. No clearancing required.

The 200 is already a stroked engine. Piston comes too far out of the cylinder at bottom dead center. The 250 has a longer cylinder - more stability for the piston and more water jacket for cooling. Read - cooler piston, higher boost.

The 250 uses a small block V8 bellhousing - no adapter plate needed. Just redrill a steel 300 flywheel and you can run an 11" clutch.

The bearings do lay over like stated earlier - should be pinned with a 3/16" dowel in the block. The rear crank shaft seal was fixed by boring for a standard sized one piece seal. The 250 timing chain sprocket was shimmed using 1 3/8" tubing with a .062 wall bringing it down to the 200 size of 1 1/4".

The reasons not to do it are the rod is almost too long and too heavy. Zero deck with a stock piston is about 6.470". As you can see the difference in the picture.

This project was put on the shelf when the last cylinder was bored and it was discovered there were gas pockets in the casting. Also with the lower cost of turbos today, not wanting an engine that looked like a 250 that was really only a 200, I decided to go back to a 200 block for the new build. Maybe in future.

Img_0989.jpg
 
whouldent it just be easyer to get an aussie 200 crank and rods which come in at 6.27in all ready and a pistons all ready made?
 
Yes drift. The Geelong built 200 crank is fairly easy to fit with drag-200 stangs mods. Crank flange is SBF, and the thrust bearing journal should be similar. The crank I'd personally pick is the Aussie 5M '221' crank, if your going to import.

Out of polite respect to others here. :lol: The points noted are very good!

:idea: The first matter is that anyone wanting performance has to compare performance verses cost, weather its a 200 dollar junker or a 20 000 dollar Megabuck. That is smart. In each case, the bill payer always complains about the cost no mater what the combination, as speed costs.

:idea: The second matter is that everyone plays a very important stategic game when they devise an engine combo...they have to play devils advocate and trade off doing nothing verses doing it all. Doing nothing is safe, it relys on Fords engineering integrity and you'll most likely be last. Doing everything will drive you broke, and you'll maybee still loose. The winners circle is full of people who obsess and analyse this stuff to screads, and then decide to do the stuff that gives them the odds to win.

I maintain the Ford's production mess-ups on the 250 six are easily fixable, and ex Ford Australian engineers have publicly admitted them, and the itemised list I've worked on came out in 1990. So a 228 stocker has been in gestation since then.

Every other major car maker who has had wild six cylinder engines in there line-up has found the smaller sixes to be better prospects. GM's Lotus Chalrton Turbo (3.6 liter) was based on an very high quality Enrich Bitter 3.9 stroker engine untill they discovered the reliabity would be awfull, so they reverse stoked the crank, beafed the block and rods and gearing to suit. Holdens wild 500 mile race winning GTR XU1 ran an engine able to hitting 7000 rpm, even though conversions like a 221 Falcon crank could bring it up to 3.9 liters. Holden never stoked the engine themsleves, even though drag racers were doing 11 second quarters with 235 cube versions.

Ford did a wild Capri RS 3400 engine, and one the European Touring car challenge. It coud have got 4 liters from just a stroker crank, but they didn't becasue of block longevity.

Jaguars 4.2 engine never, ever made the power of the 3.8.

Aston Martins 4 liter engine only existed due to the weight of the increasingly fatter DB-series.

The Renualt Alpine Turbo got a reduced capacity V6 when turboed because of block life and the fact that a supercharged engine could run in catagory against 3.4 liter Porsches.

The Nissan Skyline GTR had a tiny 2.6 liter engine, in an engine capable of 930 hp or more with just some basic changes. Yet it never got expanded out to 3 liters in the production Aussie Nissan Skyline and Holden Commodore block which got cast in the same factory.

The key problems with race longeivity on a Ford I6 are the rod ratio, it is the biggest production compromise. The other is the bore to stroke ratio...its known that large piston surface area is important to power. The Ford block is thinwall, the 250 crank has little journal overlap, the rev range is compromised, and the ability to make power is so hugely restricted by the cylinder to cylinder to cylinder flow differences on the stock head.

If you do a computer dyno run, you'll see that each modification gets results, and that they are the only money to spend.

Port on port carburation yields most of the power, you won't see it well defined anywhere else because most people don't understand it.

In the East Coast Timing Association verancular, a reduced stroke 'D' class reverse stroker engine is land speed record, class cheater stuff. Few people understand that the 250 engine block has a sweet zone for smoothness, longeivity and optimum specific power, except guys who build engines for class racing. Lots of drag racers build B engines, and win 1320 dashes, but club racing isn't drag racing.

The compromised production I6 cannot be over reved on a car which will have the wrong gear ratios. Any street style gearing will fail to suit the conditions, so the engine must have ability to be left in a gear and over-reved.

The Aussie 250 engine I destroked to 228 cubes has cost me 2700 NZ bucks so far. I fail to see how that cost is excessive. I couldn't have done it for less becasue I got the pistons of a drag racing engineer. There are custom 200 rod , 250 pistons these days, and some better rods around than the 200 rods I used, but I'm happy this is not an expensive escapade.

For a street engine, it was wrong, but for a race engine, I'll take 10% less capacity rather than 25%, and enjoy the 10% reduction in con-rod angularity at 6000 rpm while trying to stich up another car. And the 25% improvement in peak power from three 500 cfm carbs you can find anywhere. No calibration problems, no cost finding a return line and electric pump, and no concerns anywhere.
 
8)

After reading all this discussion I dont feel so bad about laying in bed at night and dreaming up such combinations.

I never thought to use aluminum rods but thats a good idea as I was wondering about long rods but keeping rod weight down.

I remembered seeing somewhere that someone was making rods from machine tool steel that were very light but strong.

Is there such a thing as a Oz 221 shortblock that can take the Oz-250/Classic Inlines head?

Are they still available?
 
Still available? Not really/much. You'd get one from Melbourne or Adelaide for about $200 plus shipping.
 
To my mind, the only time reducing displacement makes sense is when you have to do so to make a specific displacement limit to race in a certain class, such as at Bonneville. Other than that the gains, if any, do not seem to justify the costs and effort invloved.

Increasing displacement on the other hand can be quite worthwhile.

Just my .02 (after taxes)[/i]
 
I hope this thread helps. See my post and pictures. To have a machine shop do this would be crazy expensive and very time consuming. The rods end up about 6.470" long with stock compression height. Almost too long. I was 95% done with the project but dropped it when the block I was using had bad cylinder wall castings. I also figured that nobody would believe it was actually a 200 being that it looked like a 250. So back to a 200 block I went.
 
Everyone else here strokes their engine for more poke, except for me and the Ford Motor Company

See justman234's post on fitting an EF 4.0 '250 stroke' crank to a 221 on viewtopic.php?f=3&t=69393


I have late 1972 blue Ford Falcon XA engine,

Its listed under the Aussie XY, XA, XB and TC Cortina engines as a G code = High Compression HC 200 1V, 135 HP (9.38" deck seven bearing, wide block, 160 teeth flywheel or flexplate)

So it is an Aussie 200, a tall deck 250 which has a deck height of 9.38", which is 89 thou lower in the deck than the US 250. Ford Australia my have rated its L code 250 at 155 hp with a 1-bbl carb, but it was heaps more powerfull than the US L code 250, as it didn't have the 103 thou piston to deck shortfall. The destroked tall deck seven bearing 200 has a 2:1 rod ratio, and is the smoothest of all the small sixes because of it, even better than the notably smooth four bearing 144 and 170 engines. Depending on compression ratio, it was rated at 135 hp gross in 1971 when it came out in the XY Falcon. In Aussie Falcons, the 200 was widely used as a base engine for millions of council and local authority striped feature Fords, at certain times, up to 30% of Falcons sold got the short stroke, tall deck engine.

Reverse stroke base engines are a Ford institution, they've been doing them since 1934....

Its like the
US 136/60 V8 compared to the 221/85 flat head
US Ranger 2 liter compared to the 2.3 liter
US 240 is to the 300, or
the Aussie 2V 302C is to the 2V 351C, or
the 351M is to the 400 Ford...exactly the same block, but with the "guttlessness" that only low cubic inch base engines have from being many percent down on capacity. The little engines are always smoother, and often more economical but they don't set the world on fire like the big uns.

The Aussie tall deck 200 comes ex factory with its 6.275" rods and 3.126" stroke. It was the same block as fitted to the 1972 TC Ford Cortina Six, so it came with a Fox car rear dip stick tube. So it fits my Fox Mustang as long as a special sump and cut off air horn 2300 series Holley carb is used.

If you look at the xfalcon forum, James Dingas has the same engine in 3.3 cross flow form, with its longer than 300 Ford length conrods like balldricks supercharged 1960 XK Falcon 250 engine has.

The pictures on pages 3 and 4 show it.

http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php ... ect/page-3
http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php ... ect/page-4

It's going into my 1981 Mustang, its got 20 thou over Duralite pistons with 8.5 cc dish, and the larger, wide pan Aussie tall deck block.

The fact that James Dinga and Balldrick (and CYCO_250 and others) have been able to put 1993 OHC Falcon 4.0 cranks into OHV Falcon non cross flow and cross flow blocks proves how easy it is to stroke a tall deck 200/3.3. CYCO_250 even has a Chevy crank balancer on his 7500 rpm 250 x-flow Cortina.
 
rbohm":2g677ays said:
8) remember though that david vizard was dealing with racing applications when he made the statement regarding smaller engines. for the street the longer stroke will have a much better torque curve than the same bore but shorter stroke engine. case in point, on most race tracks the 289 is indeed a better overall powerplant to race with than the 302 as it revs quicker, and turns tighter than an equivalent 302. it also uses slightly less fuel than the 302. however the 302 flat works better on the street and on tight race courses than the 289 due to its better torque curve in the lower rpm range. though the 289 does better on fuel economy regardless.

for the street it is tough to beat a long stroke engine, as the only real advantage the longer rod engine has is fuel economy, and that can be reduced a bit as the longer stroke engine requires less cam timing to make power than the shorter stroke engine does.



One other advantage is smoothness, sweetness and economy if the L/R ratio and gearing is improved to suit . My short deck 1967 XR Falcon 200 engine has a 1.5:1 rod ratio, but the tall deck 1972 is 2:1, and the 250's everywhere have always been 1.5:1. When you hop into any short stroke 3.3 log, non cross flow, or 3.2 OHC, you are suddenly aware how rough the 1.5:1 L/R ratio engines are. The specific power between a 200 Aussie engine and 250 Aussie engine is listed as about 15% less on the early engines, but only 9% less on the later ones.

The little engines are really nice and smooth compared to the bigger versions. Gearing takes care of the rest, the factory optimized that with the bigger cars running 2.92 or 2.78, 2.77 or even 2.54's, but the 3.3 got a 3.23 five speed or 2.92 four speed. Our little XE, XF, and EA 3.3 and 3.2 liter engines with a nice BW T5 or Single Rail BW 5 speed with those 3.23:1 diffs, got loping 0.79 over driven 5ths, and eventually got the right ratio spread, with 3.24 or 3.47 first gears, and a short throw stick shift on offer. They were constantly the same acceleration as the automatic 4.1 and 3.9's, with less fuel used even when thrashed. As our US 170 and 200 cube T5 guys know, the smaller sixes can cope with huge ratio spreads, and lean cruise. The 25% difference in engine size is less than a 9% penalty when the lack of extra strength in the diff and trans is needed...our Cortinas got downgraded 7 inch diffs and low carb single rail gearboxes, and the base model XE and XF's were much lighter as a 3.3 than they were as 4.1's.
 
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