It runs!! but.... not in gear

[barishiman]

We'll after much frustrations we had a friend come over and help us out.

This is what I got to re-iterate:
a. Pertronix Ignitor II w/ flamerthrower II ignition coil
b. Holley 5200 on Clifford adapter
c. 3 row raditor w/ flex fan
d. 68 dizzy
e. 66 stock block and head .030 over pistons, redone head with 1.75 intake valves, 3 angle valve job, new springs and valves
f. new oil pump
g. 7mm wires
h. FSPP Pacemaker header
i. Bosch spark plugs
j. stock C4 auto trani

So here's a list of what went down:

1. The pushrods had to loosened abit

2. Inspection of dizzy and Pertronix unit
a. I took the Pertronix unit out and made sure it was the correct one, which it was.

b. I then re-installed the Pertronix unit and it still rubs on the plastic sleeve with the green nylon tape. It was troublesome just the get the unit to sit correctly. I installed the unit where the points were. I did notice that it was sitting atop of the vacuum arm thus it is tilting the Pertronix unit into the sleeve. I thought maybe we could shave off some of the metal off the unit, but no. The actual Pertrnoix unit is sitting atop the vacuum arm. I attempted to move the unit around, but there was no where to fasten it down. So I just installed it and put the dizzy back in the car.

c. Installed the dizzy on the compression stroke of #1 and the rotor set to #1 on the dizzy cap. Ran all the wires and none were crossed.

3. It fired after a couple of tries and man was it loud. However we couldn't hear the lifters clicking. We tried to adjust the pushrods while the car was running but that failed. So we shut off the car and did it by feel. Cranked it up and it ran alittle smoother.

4. Then we pulled out the timing light and adjusted the timing to 12°. We did move it to 14° and it ran smoother but kept it at 12°.

5. Adjusted the idle on the carb. It was idling extremely fast. After messing around alittle with the carb, we got the car to idle fairly well at a slower speed. However, I can't tell how many RPM's were pullin (no gauge).

6. After harming up the car, we decided to put it into gear. Well that killed the engine and that's where I am now. The car refuses to run if I put the car in gear. So I thought of the things below that could be causing this:

a. Off the top of my head, the tranni was moved up and down a lot while working on the engine bay during the cleaning process. A whole lot of tranni fluid was lost. I put more tranni fluid in before we started the engine, but knowing how much was lost is impossible. Also during the installation of the engine, we had trouble with the torque converter mating with the engine block. We moved the torque converter around until it finally slid back into the tranni and the engine could mate. So I'm guessing maybe there's something wrong with the tranni?

b. The Pertronix unit and its air gap that is needed (.030"). It ain't happenin fellas. I might be able to modify the bracket that it's on, but it's going to be close. The pertronix unit for my 65 dizzy was fine during installation, even had the gap, but yes that is a different dizzy.

c. Could the valves still be too tight still ? We are thinking of loosening them again a 1/8 to 1/4 turn.

d. Should the timing be adjusted to 14° or where should it be? Would the timing be afftected with all the modifications made and does anyone have a suggested timing degree?

e. Possibly the alternator is fried after one of the wires melted. The wire was a black/ yellow stripe with a black plug. I have no idea what it was and my build manual doesn't tell me what it is. But all is good, seems it was a wire not needed and the engine has been able to start. I will take the alternator off and get it checked sometime this week.

I think that the Pertronix unit is one of the main problems and maybe the valves has something to do with it. So this is where I ask for advice and where I should go next. I'm also attaching some pictures.

Here is a picture of the coolant lines. I've attached the fuel and vacuum lines to the coolant lines. Do you think that by running the fuel line along with the coolant would be causing vapor lock because of the heat of the lines?

Here's a pic of the Pertronix unit.

All you guys have been a great help! I'm a novice at the whole engine thing, but I've been trying to learn everything I can. If I fail to mention anything, it's my fault and sometimes I forget or don't know how to describe the situation. Let me tell you this, if I didn't find this site, I would be in deep $#!t.

THANKS!!!!

Andrew

 

[strat1960s]

I looked at my Mustang Wiring diagram and the Black wire with the yellow stripe goes to the Radio Suppression Condensor. I would say that it should not prevent your car from starting or running.
As for your other problems, I would have to consult my trouble shooting guide in both my mannuals. If there is anything worth mentioning, I will post it.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Ted

 

[rbohm]

8) final idle speed needs to be set in drive.

 

[CobraSix]

Get a tach so you can accurately set the RPM. I bet your timing is off. You set the timing then adjusted the carb speed. Did you reset timing after that? If you set the timing while the carb was idling at say, 1500 RPM for example, your idle timing will be way off.

Retime the car. Get a tac and run the carb to about 800 RPM with an automatic in nuetral or park. Set the timing to about 14* BTDC. Remember to unplug the vacuum advance and plug it from the carb or manifold. After setting the timing at 800 RPM, try putting it into gear (set the parking brake) and reset the final idle.

As far as adjusting the gap, you should adjust it just like you would with points. Loosen the one screw and try to pivot the ignitor unit out some.

Slade

 

[addo]

:!: This might sound funny, but is it possible you've attached the Pertronix to the wrong screw hole? We didn't have this exact dizzy here (instead the Bosch unit), but the Autolite pics I have in the service manual have the points almost opposite where you've put the Ignitor. This would allow the clearance required. Lack of air gap may be screwing the triggering of the unit.

Adam.

 

[barishiman]

rbohm:
I'll try that if I can get it to idle in gear

Slade:
We checked the timing after messing with the idle, and it was still at 12°. We didn't reset the timing though. In the past I've looked for a tach that I could in my hands while timing the car but none of the auto parts stores had one. I might have to go to a performance shop was their comments. I'll reset the timing to 14° BTDC and go from their. As for the gap, I'll take the Pertronix unit back out and see what I can do. I can achieve the gap but the unit isn't stationary, but I'll mess with it again.

addo:
I put the Pertronix unit where the points were. I've tried moving the unit around but it wouldn't seat correclty. Like I said I'll piddle with it later this week.


Thanks guys. i'll use your advice when I can get back to the car. Off to work at the Labor Day parade. I'll post an update ASAP.

Andrew

 

[Anonymous]

If you have a Harbor Freight Tools in you area, they sell an auto diagnostic kit for around 40.00 that has a handheld tach in it along with a timing and some other stuff, granted all of it "cheap grade" but it wasnt to awfull bad, a buddy of mine got one once and we used it on his car. Worked well, you just wont be handing it down to your son later on.

 

[barishiman]

UPDATE:

disobvious

the closest Harbor Freight Tools is an hour away. I'll look around locally in my area one more time.

I've taken some pics of the Pertronix unit. I'm thinking that to me that either the wrong unit was put in the box by Pertronix or by Mustangs Unlimited. I piddle for an hour this morning before I left with it and it just wouldn't seat corrected. I might have to give Pertronix a call tomorrow. However the car started and idled quite well. So it could or could not be the unit.

It is clearly seen that the studs on the points and the studs on the Pertronix unit are in the opposite direction. The one for the 65 dizzy has the stud in the correct spot.

Here you can see where the stud on the Pertronix unit is scracthing the dizzy. If I put it in the hole to the left you can't screw down the unit, but if I put it in the screw hole on the right, you can fasten it but it sits on top of the vacuum arm and leans into the sleeve with the green nylon tape.

So can I run the car with points and the Flamethrower II coil or do I go back to my old coil?

I want to use the Pertronix unit because I've already bought two and by god I'm getting my money's worth out of them with a doubt.

EDITED:

It also occured to me that it could be a major vacuum leak. While moving the tranni around, the vacuum line bounced around a lot. I'll crawl under the car and check it out. Also I'll check the spark plugs for oil or carbon.

Andrew

 

[barishiman]

The spark plugs look fine so my guess is they are firing well. Guess I can put the Pertronix unit back with it rubbing and see how it goes.

Andrew

 

[Ronbo]

I'll check mine at lunch. Something does'nt look right with yours. Can't put my finger on it though. Is that the Ignitor II??

 

[barishiman]

Ronbo

Yeah, that's the Ignitor II. It seems to be alittle big to me.

Andrew

 

[CobraSix]

I just checked my old ignitor on a 68 dizzy and it looks 180* off from yours. You are only using the screw on the one side, right?

For some reason, you dizzy doesn't look like mine either. you may want to check it.

I don't know if that has anything to do with it not running in gear. It is definitely undesireable as it will wear the tape out and cause the system to fail.

As far as your running problem, when it dies, how does it die? Do the RPMS just drop a little and the car stumbles and then dies or does it stop running completely as soon as it is in gear?

Outside possibility, though I don't know much about automatics on these cars...any possibility that the nuetral safety switch may be connected wrong and ends up killing the car when putting it into gear because it isn't receiving the signal the engine is already running?

Slade

 

[Ronbo]

That looks exactly like the one I have in mine. Something is not right with the distributor though. Are the little plastic buttons in there? If not the Ignitor would ride on the vac adv arm. Mine seems to pass under it.

 

[barishiman]

Ronbo

I have plastic studs/buttons if that is what your refering to. The one closest to the vacuum advance arm is nearly on top of it.


Slade

Hrmm.... do you suppose that the plate in the dizzy where the Pertronix unit sits on is installed incorrectly? And yes I was using the screw hole to the right closest to the vacuum advance.

As for not running in gear, the engine immediately stops. It might stumble for a second (a quick second) and then it dies. I don't know about a neutral safety switch, but I sure didn't mess with such a thing (I think I didn't, jezzzz). I do remember that there are two wires coming from the tranni that I plugged up into the new wiring harness. It was hard to tell what color each pair of wires were. I believe one pair was red and the other black.

If one of you don't mind, could one you guys post a pic of your 68 dizzy so I can see how the Pertronix unit sits correctly. I'll look at those tranni wires again while I'm under the car.

Thanks
Andrew

 

[barishiman]

I was just under the car and here's whats up:

a. trani vacuum line is secure, just bobbles around
b. trani oil pan bolts were loose, tightened those up
c. throttle kick-down cable has a lot of slack, should I tighten that to have no slack?
d. tighten all lines again
e. neutral safety switch: There is a pair of black plugs and red plugs. I connected them by matching colors. I wouldn't think that red would go to black and vice versa.

I"m out to look for an RPM gauge.

Andrew

 

[Ronbo]

After taking out my Pertronix and looking at the distributor, yours looks nothing like mine. Is there a part # cast into it somewhere? The plate that the points mount to is totally different from mine and mine is an original part. The shape and size of the Pertronix appears to match mine. Let me know what you find.


Ron

 

[barishiman]

Ronbo

This is all I could find on the dizzy:

DSO or D605 12127 Motorcraft

That sounds to me to be a 1976 dizzy by the part# if i'm not wrong.

I bought it at Advance Auto Parts in store (they had to order it), Cardone rmfg dizzy part# 30-2682. It was the same model # at AutoZone and Napa.

My dizzy doesn't look like the one in the picture above. Does this mean that I would have to buy another dizzy, like from Mustangs Unlimited. They want $80.00 for one !


Also to note I called a family friend who rebuilt my trani and who has rebuilt tranis all his life. He also owned a Mustang. After going through some troubleshooting, the only other thing that wouldn't let the engine to run in gear would be that I might have broken the drive pump gear when re-installing the torque convertor.


Andrew

 

[Anonymous]

I would not invest that much.... (if I was a DII dizzy would be the better bet)
Go to AutoZone or NAPA and order the same year dizzy you want.. cross it to the Falcon 3.3L 200 and then take that one in and compare them... I am thinking you got the wrong one!

Here are my NAPA numbers...
NRD
482613 (single advance)

NRD
482682 (Dual Advance)

Both are 40 bucks! adn point type dizzy's!

 

[barishiman]

I'd hate to tell you Jimbo, but those are the same dizzy's I posted earlier. I've got in contact with Steve, and he's told me that more than likely I do have the wrong dizzy. Except for the dual advance, I also have dual vacuum lines. He said it should have worked, just capping off the retard line. Either way, the Pertronix unit will not fit correctly with the one I got. I hope that one plans to buy a Pertronix unit gets the right one for their application because this is becoming a nightmare. Maybe there should a Pertronix review in the Tech section to stop all the confusion and frustrations.

Andrew

 

[Ronbo]

I'd go to Advance or Auto Zoo and get a reman for a 68 Mustang 200. It will work fine. The 76 one has a different plate that the points mount to.