I'm trying to confirm what engine is in the car I just bought. It was advertised as a big bell 200 and has a 5 speed manual transmission, which would be consistent with coming out of an 81-83 Mustang. It also has the low starter location. However, the code cast into the block is C1DE-6015-A and the block has three core plugs, which would indicate a 63 or 64 200. Did they use the earlier blocks to make the big bell 200's? My main interest in knowing is: the car doesn't run very well and I'll probably want to upgrade the carburetor and distributor but don't feel like I know what to shop for.
All Small Six Low starter/Big Bell question
- Thread starter DanSC
- Start date
This relates to all small sixes
That does not sound like the correct cast code on the block but you can find further info below:
Maybe post a pic.
Maybe post a pic.
I don’t know the head code. The dealer sent me a couple of pictures. One is the block code. I don’t know what the second one is, but it makes no sense for a head.
frozenrabbit
Well-known member
I think you need to get to 5 posts/replies before you can post pics. Not 100% sure on the number of posts.
That's a '61 170 block. Small bell housing. 200's start in '64, 3 plug is rare. 9" bell housing started in '66-'67. If the price is right, the 5 speed alone is worth it.
Very easy to find a later 200 with a manual trans, complete, then swap over the 5 speed. Would need the 3.03 bell trans adapter.
That's a '61 170 block. Small bell housing. 200's start in '64, 3 plug is rare. 9" bell housing started in '66-'67. If the price is right, the 5 speed alone is worth it.
Very easy to find a later 200 with a manual trans, complete, then swap over the 5 speed. Would need the 3.03 bell trans adapter.
TrickSix
Famous Member
So, did the dealer tell you how many core plugs and what the casting number was, or did you see them for yourself? The low-mount starter too. The head casting number is on the top of the intake manifold to the rear of the carb. It should be a similar format to the number on the block - letter/number/letter/letter. The first four characters are the most important here. Be patient and keep posting. It doesn't take long to get your pic posting rights. That will help everybody figure out what you've got and what you can do with it.
The dealer sent me photos of the core plugs and casting number. I also paid for an inspection which confirmed both. I have photos from the inspection showing the low mount starter and confirming the 5 speed. I haven’t taken delivery of the car yet, so I can’t look for more details yet.
TrickSix
Famous Member
Well, something is mixed up here. The low-mount starter blocks are from late in the 200's production run, they cannot have a C1DE casting number, it should be an E1BE or maybe a D8DE, and all of them have the five core plug/seven main bearing castings. Sometimes those numbers are hard to read, they're rusty, dirty, and dinged up. It will be interesting to see what's there when the pics get posted.
frozenrabbit
Well-known member
Any other pics?
Here are some screen shots I took from the video the inspector sent kind of showing the starter location and some welded in “patches?” that might be significant. This car is a fabricated tribute to a 1930’s race car. It has a fiberglass body, wire wheels, etc. I guess anything might have been done to make it work. The photos are still up on the dealers’ website. There are not many engine photos and they are not close up. https://www.adventureclassiccars.com/vehicles/500/1931-alfa-romeo-p3-tribute .
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I do not have much pre 66 knowledge so I can not say it is not a 200 but it do not think that it is. That is not a 200 big bell. It as a high mount small bell trans block. It looks like a adapter have been made to adapt the bellhousing to block and the flywheel looks odd. Maybe others have more info. As long as you know what you are getting and are happy with it is all that matters.
Cool car.
Cool car.
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frozenrabbit
Well-known member
That's something odd ball. Don't see a reason for the welded up oil pan. Definitely not a 200 with that road draft tube. Weird coil. Some weird 5 speed, odd looking flywheel and clutch, odd looking teeth. When you said 5 speed, I was thinking a T5 conversion. This is a conversion to some other 5 speed, bell adapter on the back of the block to some non-Ford bell and trans. Alfa trans? No idea. She's oily! Has potential!
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TrickSix
Famous Member
That is cool! For sure that's an old Ford six, by the # an early 170. Could have the original LOM distributor and SCV 1100 carb. With the small distributor drive in that block there aren't many alternatives to them. Some aftermarket coil there with an external resistor. Tight quarters in there, the oil filter has been relocated to the right rear of the block. I wish there was a pic of what they've done to the exhaust!
TrickSix
Famous Member
Have you driven the car? It looks like it would be pretty light-weight, the 170 might be enough power for a custom reproduction of a primitive chassis. You could probably put a 200 in it fairly easily. But unless the engine needs work, you might want to let sleeping dogs lie. It would be hard to upgrade the suspension and brakes on something that custom. How much torque can those wire wheels take?
WOW ! very well done personal art form on wheels with such attention to Alfa visual details . I'd like to know more about the builder and your passing it to the future.
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I'm almost too familiar with early small block six's :
- - looks like early 144/170 4 Main / 3 Freeze Plug / small bellhouse, high mount starter engine block C1DE ( 2.77 BH or 2Spd Auto BH Bolt Pattern ). .. . . . - -looks to have original carb coolant passage so probably OEM carb, accessories on early matching cylinder head. etc..
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144/170 block series with 4 mains , 3 frz plugs flat top pistons and smaller cyl bore than 200 but dimensionally same for accessories, mounts etc. Same 170 4 main engine was used through early 1970's in Falcon, Mustang, Maverick/Comet. I have a 1971 4 main 170 (C8DE) in a '63 Falcon.
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"... main interest in knowing is: the car doesn't run very well and I'll probably want to upgrade the carburetor and distributor but don't feel like I know what to shop for."
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Early C1DE to C5DE have different distributor than later @ 1966 up engines. This limits distributor choice to the 'Early Small Drive" or aftermarket distrib etc. Nothing wrong with original points' in decent shape for low road mile cars .
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If original, the Carb will have rebuild kits available and different carb options are extensive. With simple adapters virtually any suitable size/look carb will fit . - My Falcon 170 uses a Weber 2Bbl progressive on a simple adapter, '61 Comet has Three glass bowl Holley 1904's just for fun.
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obvious looks to need some storage related service like Valve stem seals often harden and crack with smoky exhaust looking worse than the damage.
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Almost any 200 (or 170) engine from 66 up through late 70's with high starter should/could swap right in unless block was modified for the 5 Spd Bellhouse. The 200 kept the early small BH pattern right thru late 70's along with larger BH 'Toploader' 3.03 tranny pattern. The early small pattern was used for the 200 with C4 automatic until late 70's. The unknown BH/5Spd should swap to any later 200 if BH uses Early Small PAttern.
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Mixed careful Fab and availables with VW front susp, Falcon rear with fab suspension?, Curious 5 Speed..
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BTW :
Heres another early 144 six powered sports car still seen on the track , used old Volvo 4 Spd last I knew...
stevemckelvie.wordpress.com
.
have fun
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I'm almost too familiar with early small block six's :
- - looks like early 144/170 4 Main / 3 Freeze Plug / small bellhouse, high mount starter engine block C1DE ( 2.77 BH or 2Spd Auto BH Bolt Pattern ). .. . . . - -looks to have original carb coolant passage so probably OEM carb, accessories on early matching cylinder head. etc..
.
144/170 block series with 4 mains , 3 frz plugs flat top pistons and smaller cyl bore than 200 but dimensionally same for accessories, mounts etc. Same 170 4 main engine was used through early 1970's in Falcon, Mustang, Maverick/Comet. I have a 1971 4 main 170 (C8DE) in a '63 Falcon.
.
"... main interest in knowing is: the car doesn't run very well and I'll probably want to upgrade the carburetor and distributor but don't feel like I know what to shop for."
.
Early C1DE to C5DE have different distributor than later @ 1966 up engines. This limits distributor choice to the 'Early Small Drive" or aftermarket distrib etc. Nothing wrong with original points' in decent shape for low road mile cars .
.
If original, the Carb will have rebuild kits available and different carb options are extensive. With simple adapters virtually any suitable size/look carb will fit . - My Falcon 170 uses a Weber 2Bbl progressive on a simple adapter, '61 Comet has Three glass bowl Holley 1904's just for fun.
. .
obvious looks to need some storage related service like Valve stem seals often harden and crack with smoky exhaust looking worse than the damage.
.
Almost any 200 (or 170) engine from 66 up through late 70's with high starter should/could swap right in unless block was modified for the 5 Spd Bellhouse. The 200 kept the early small BH pattern right thru late 70's along with larger BH 'Toploader' 3.03 tranny pattern. The early small pattern was used for the 200 with C4 automatic until late 70's. The unknown BH/5Spd should swap to any later 200 if BH uses Early Small PAttern.
.
Mixed careful Fab and availables with VW front susp, Falcon rear with fab suspension?, Curious 5 Speed..
.
BTW :
Heres another early 144 six powered sports car still seen on the track , used old Volvo 4 Spd last I knew...
The Philson Falcon
When I was at the recent Lime Rock Historic Festival, Bob Melhado, who was the Chief Steward, said to me: “Let’s take a look at a Philson Falcon.” I agreed as I had never heard o…
stevemckelvie.wordpress.com
have fun
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