All Small Six Low starter/Big Bell question

[TrickSix]

Have you driven the car? It looks like it would be pretty light-weight, the 170 might be enough power for a custom reproduction of a primitive chassis. You could probably put a 200 in it fairly easily. But unless the engine needs work, you might want to let sleeping dogs lie. It would be hard to upgrade the suspension and brakes on something that custom. How much torque can those wire wheels take?

On the other hand, it looks like there's plenty of under-hood room for a triple carb set-up... How cool would that look?

 

[DanSC]

That's something odd ball. Don't see a reason for the welded up oil pan. Definitely not a 200 with that road draft tube. Weird coil. Some weird 5 speed, odd looking flywheel and clutch, odd looking teeth. When you said 5 speed, I was thinking a T5 conversion. This is a conversion to some other 5 speed, bell adapter on the back of the block to some non-Ford bell and trans. Alfa trans? No idea. She's oily! Has potential!

Well, I’m disappointed that it’s not a T5, but as long as it works, I guess. When I can get it cleaned off I’ll see if I can find some ID on the transmission.

 

[DanSC]

Have you driven the car? It looks like it would be pretty light-weight, the 170 might be enough power for a custom reproduction of a primitive chassis. You could probably put a 200 in it fairly easily. But unless the engine needs work, you might want to let sleeping dogs lie. It would be hard to upgrade the suspension and brakes on something that custom. How much torque can those wire wheels take?

I have not driven it. The inspector said it tracks straight and accelerates well. Yes, I’m thinking I’ll let sleeping dogs lie. A 170 is fine with me. I knew it was an old block, and the 200’s made with the old block sound like they had some issues. The carb is a small, manual choke Holley. I don’t have a photo of the distributor but the carb does not appear to have a SCV, so I’m assuming the distributor has been changed. Attached are photos of the exhaust from the inspector.

 

[DanSC]

WOW ! very well done personal art form on wheels with such attention to Alfa visual details . I'd like to know more about the builder and your passing it to the future.
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I'm almost too familiar with early small block six's :
- - looks like early 144/170 4 Main / 3 Freeze Plug / small bellhouse, high mount starter engine block C1DE ( 2.77 BH or 2Spd Auto BH Bolt Pattern ). .. . . . - -looks to have original carb coolant passage so probably OEM carb, accessories on early matching cylinder head. etc..
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144/170 block series with 4 mains , 3 frz plugs flat top pistons and smaller cyl bore than 200 but dimensionally same for accessories, mounts etc. Same 170 4 main engine was used through early 1970's in Falcon, Mustang, Maverick/Comet. I have a 1971 4 main 170 (C8DE) in a '63 Falcon.
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"... main interest in knowing is: the car doesn't run very well and I'll probably want to upgrade the carburetor and distributor but don't feel like I know what to shop for."
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Early C1DE to C5DE have different distributor than later @ 1966 up engines. This limits distributor choice to the 'Early Small Drive" or aftermarket distrib etc. Nothing wrong with original points' in decent shape for low road mile cars .
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If original, the Carb will have rebuild kits available and different carb options are extensive. With simple adapters virtually any suitable size/look carb will fit . - My Falcon 170 uses a Weber 2Bbl progressive on a simple adapter, '61 Comet has Three glass bowl Holley 1904's just for fun.
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obvious looks to need some storage related service like Valve stem seals often harden and crack with smoky exhaust looking worse than the damage.
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Almost any 200 (or 170) engine from 66 up through late 70's with high starter should/could swap right in unless block was modified for the 5 Spd Bellhouse. The 200 kept the early small BH pattern right thru late 70's along with larger BH 'Toploader' 3.03 tranny pattern. The early small pattern was used for the 200 with C4 automatic until late 70's. The unknown BH/5Spd should swap to any later 200 if BH uses Early Small PAttern.
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Mixed careful Fab and availables with VW front susp, Falcon rear with fab suspension?, Curious 5 Speed..
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BTW :
Heres another early 144 six powered sports car still seen on the track , used old Volvo 4 Spd last I knew...

The Philson Falcon

When I was at the recent Lime Rock Historic Festival, Bob Melhado, who was the Chief Steward, said to me: “Let’s take a look at a Philson Falcon.” I agreed as I had never heard o…

stevemckelvie.wordpress.com

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have fun

I haven’t been able to find out anything about the builder. Somebody was obviously making the fiberglass bodies, but there seem to be very few cars that were built. I’m planning to do upgrades but mostly stay with what the builder has done. No plans for a total restoration.

The carb is a small, manual choke Holley.

Yes, the inspector mentioned “rich exhaust smoke on start-up”. I was wondering if it might be the valve stem seals.

 

[TrickSix]

Custom header sure looks authentic! There are valve cover varieties that don't say Ford on them to help with the illusion. How's the oil pressure? Those are some long not very big diameter lines to that remote filter. And I like the way the jousting spear, I mean the steering column, runs right through the engine compartment and hood to get to the front end.

 

[frozenrabbit]

Could definitely use a valve cover gasket, and get rid of the flat head valve cover screws. It's gonna have umbrella style valve seals. A lot of oil on the head, but that oil pan looks very dry.

Most likely that is a SCV carb and LOM distributor. If this 170 is weak, you can certainly swap in a 200 and keep the trans set-up. Better distributor options. Would mostly be a bolt in swap. 200's are easy to find, and cheap, hard to give away a 144 or 170.

You'd most likely be looking at firewall mods to get a 9" clutch and bell setup in there. Then trans mount and clutch linkage issues.

 

[powerband]

... spied Cyl head as likely C0DE completing early 144 / 170 . All cyl heads from '60 thru late 70's 144 thru 250 small block interchange with some reservations. The size of log manifold carb port will be smaller throat and bolt spread on most 60's era cyl heads/carbs.
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have fun

 

[DanSC]

Custom header sure looks authentic! There are valve cover varieties that don't say Ford on them to help with the illusion. How's the oil pressure? Those are some long not very big diameter lines to that remote filter. And I like the way the jousting spear, I mean the steering column, runs right through the engine compartment and hood to get to the front end.

The gauge says the oil pressure is good. Good point about the oil lines. Yeah, not a lot of safety features on this car.

 

[427John]

Here are some screen shots I took from the video the inspector sent kind of showing the starter location and some welded in “patches?” that might be significant. This car is a fabricated tribute to a 1930’s race car. It has a fiberglass body, wire wheels, etc. I guess anything might have been done to make it work. The photos are still up on the dealers’ website. There are not many engine photos and they are not close up. https://www.adventureclassiccars.com/vehicles/500/1931-alfa-romeo-p3-tribute .

The pic showing the starter and flywheel appears to show a horseshoe type adapter ring in between the block and bellhousing, if done correctly getting all alignments dead on it should be fine if not it can be a huge can of worms. You should be able to take the car for a test drive to verify that the engine starts reliably with no funny noises and with this engine and a modern transmission it should be sewing machine smooth if not I would be walking away from it unless you are looking for a project and the price reflects that. As far as it not being a T5, provided it was adapted correctly pretty much any import 5 speed would be up to living behind a 144 or 170.

 

[TrickSix]

And speaking of 144s, guys, is that a C0DE 144 head number there? I wish I had a verified casting code list. The one in the archives here has a lot of omissions and maybe some over-generalizations. The one in my Falcon Six handbook seems more comprehensive but I still wonder sometimes. It says the C1DE block number is 170 only, and the C0DE head number is 144 only. That's not a good combination. The 144 head has smaller valves.

 

[DanSC]

The pic showing the starter and flywheel appears to show a horseshoe type adapter ring in between the block and bellhousing, if done correctly getting all alignments dead on it should be fine if not it can be a huge can of worms. You should be able to take the car for a test drive to verify that the engine starts reliably with no funny noises and with this engine and a modern transmission it should be sewing machine smooth if not I would be walking away from it unless you are looking for a project and the price reflects that. As far as it not being a T5, provided it was adapted correctly pretty much any import 5 speed would be up to living behind a 144 or 170.

I wasn’t there to drive it but the inspector did. With the manual choke, it’s a bit touchy getting it started. The inspector said the idle is set too high, which probably means it won’t stay running unless it is. The carb shows corrosion and I’ll either get a rebuild or replace it. I’ll also make sure the distributor is up to snuff. Once started, the inspector said it ran well and accelerated smoothly. The money has changed hands so I’m committed at this point.

 

[vssman]

I wasn’t there to drive it but the inspector did. With the manual choke, it’s a bit touchy getting it started. The inspector said the idle is set too high, which probably means it won’t stay running unless it is. The carb shows corrosion and I’ll either get a rebuild or replace it. I’ll also make sure the distributor is up to snuff. Once started, the inspector said it ran well and accelerated smoothly. The money has changed hands so I’m committed at this point.

Congrats on the purchase. Post up more pictures when you get it.

 

[427John]

I was talking more about the starter engagement to the flywheel noisewise since they relocated the starter. If it makes ugly noises while cranking over it may mean poor alignment to the ring gear. Any vibration driving down the road or hard and noisy shifting of the transmission could point to poor alignment of the transmission to the engine.

 

[drag-200stang]

Have you looked into plates and insurance?
I would be curious to know how much it weighs.

 

[DanSC]

Have you looked into plates and insurance?
I would be curious to know how much it weighs.

Sorry for the slow reply. I have not looked into plates yet. I called my insurance company and the best price was through Hagerty, which I put in place. No one has given me an idea of the weight so far. Maybe the trucker will know when they deliver it? If not, I’ll try to get weight when I can take it to a scale.

 

[DanSC]

So, the car was delivered a couple of days ago and I'm happy with it. I haven't really driven it because it's not registered yet. The paperwork must have mentioned that the odometer is not working and the DMV seems quite stuck on it having a working odometer. The previous owner replaced all the gauges and I've sent the speedometer/odometer off for repairs.

The engine seems to be fitted with the original carb and distributor. The carb is a Holley with a Ford tag. The distributor looks to be a load-o-matic, with a weird aftermarket coil - presumably high voltage. The carb should have a spark control valve but there's a device in the SCV opening that doesn't look like any spark control valve I can find online. I'm thinking I'd like to replace the distributor with a DUI but get the carb rebuilt and keep it, if it can be made to work with the new distributor.

 

[powerband]

sure is fun looking at that One-Off unique car built with a personal attention to the details to make it a Walter Mitty' surreal Alfa or Bugatti or similar ...
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especially like the original Falcon bellcrank accel pedal , smoky road tube , remote oil filter with NPT fittings at block , square body coil , ubiquitous Holley 1904 carburetor - ( accepts glass fuel bowls for visuals ).
have fun
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[DanSC]

In post #30, there is a question raised about whether the cylinder head is for a 170 or a 144. Now that I've got the car, I can see that the full cylinder head number is C0DE-6090-C. Since the head has had a couple of revisions since the original, would this make it appropriate for a 170 despite the "0" code? Also, do the year codes apply to when the part was cast, or to the model year of the car it was made for?

 

[drag-200stang]

I can shed some light on that but not all. That casting code is more like a design or blue print code that tells what the part is and what model year when it was designed not when it was made but how it is made. You will not find a C8=68 in a C0 car unless it came from a C8 but , you can let us say, you can find a C8 170 block in a 72, because Ford did not change the design from 68 to the end of production. There can be revisions, that is the last letter. I am sure other members can add more.

 

[DanSC]

Thanks. No other responses, so I guess you nailed it. I'd like to think the engine is unchanged from original and leave it like it is for posterity, but I don't like the thought that the head might have been changed and now the valves are undersized.