Mechanical Fuel Injection Need Help From the Experts On This

[351wF-250]

I am planning on buying one of 6banger bill's Fs1 heads. I plan on running a crower cam, having a turbo, some form of mechanical fuel injection. I can get Hillborn's pretty easy ( friends with a sprint car driver). However I need to know what is needed for a street setup. This will be a sort of daily driver, but i have friends with mustangs and I want to show them how fast a 300 can go. I know that hillborn says they aren't for the street, but diesels were mechanical fuel injection and they are streetable. I am not afraid of modifing things. This whole truck will be a AMC wannabe. Also with a Fs1 how will i need to setup a distributor. I know that magnetos are also not for the street. I am not really a fan of electronics or crank triggers. I work in a auto parts store and have grown to hate all the EFI and computers out there. Carbs, and mechanical things are easy to work with. Simple to fix, no computers needed, just simple hand tools. I am hoping that someone can help with this one. I would think someone has a good idea what is needed for this. FTF I would like to also know what setup you have in a nutshell. You seem to be rather successful in building your six. Help me out on this, i am friends with several engineers, machinists, and welders so I am sure that with money( that is a duh huh statement) I can get something to work. All I need is advice on where to go.

 

[Lazy JW]

... FTF I would like to also know what setup you have in a nutshell. You seem to be rather successful in building your six...

Yup. And Tiger Woods has been rather successful at playing golf

Turbo + Hillborn's = 8) Just add money and stir This one ain't gonna be cheap but I like it already.

Mike has a DUI ignition that should solve all of your sparking issues.
Have fun,
Joe

 

[351wF-250]

yeah I know it won't be cheap but I think it will be cool in the end. I like the look of the old drag cars. Plus I think it would be great to look at a mustang and go ahhh, I beat you with two less cylinders. Like I said though I can get a Hilborn setup from a friend, since that is all sprint cars use. I think when it is said and done with it will be worth all the expense. I figure if I do something that no one else has done I am only forging ground for new and more extreme ideas to come about.

 

[2nd.gunman]

as an alternative to a hilborn setup, you could try to adapt a mechanical injection setup off a 6cyl mercedes benz. they used mechanical injection into the early 90's. looks like a fairly simple setup but i dunno how easy it would be to adapt it to a 300 or if it would flow enough. just a thought

 

[351wF-250]

The reason I am going with Hilborn's is that I know people who would let used Hilborns go for a song. I don't think the setup itself should be difficult to build. Just adapt a piece to go from the round base of the Hilborn to the Rectangular Port of the ls1. Since I am interested in the FS1 it should be rather easy, time and patience is the key. I have a muffler shop in town that doesn't mind custom fab work like will be needed in the end for this thing. The main corcern in general is the ability to get it to function well at idle. Hilborn says that they work well at full throttle but not at idle, since they have no real idle curcuit. That is the hurdle to overcome really. If I get this system to function well I will definately let everyone know. I have been researching Magnetos a little more, and if I could find a 90 degree magneto for a 300 or a magneto that could be adapted for the 300 I will go with that, since all they lack is a vacuum advance. I ran the truck for a while without a vacuum advance ( old one rusted til it didn't work). I think I could live without it. Does anyone know where I could find that? I think someone mentioned a magneto for the 300. Is there a adapter to make it a 90 degree setup. I know that someone at some point made a 90 degree magneto I have actually seen one. Course that was on a old drag car.

 

[Geezer 300]

I don't know why a magneto wouldn't work on the street, I ran one in my Mustang for years without any problems.

 

[rbohm]

8) trying adapt a hillborn injection for the street is going to be tougher than you think. some of the problems are;

1: they run rich at idle and low speed, and it is tough to change that part of the fuel curve, and keep it consistant.

2: the pump is mechanically driven, usually off the cam but can be done as a belt drive as well.

3: you will need a fuel shut off valve, and a way to keep the pump primed at all times, otherwise you WILL burn up an expensive pump.

4: you will need a high grade fuel filter that will filter things to very small particles, otherwise you will clog an injector and burn a piston.

5: you will be constantly tuning the system to keep it running right.

it can be and has been done, but most people who have done it say it isnt worth the effort overall. fuel economy goes in the tank, cold drivability sucks big time, and maintenance can be a nightmare. there is a book you need to find called high perofrmance with fuel injection. in it the author tells you what pumps and injector nozzles you should be running, how to set up the system, etc. i have worked on these systems(hilborn and jackson) before, and when they are right on a race car, the only thing stronger is a blower. when they are off though, you have no end of troubles.

 

[351wF-250]

I have been looking into this matter, I think I can tune the Hilborn's good enough to run the truck for as little as it gets run. However, I requested some pics from 6banger bill and he had pics of a roots blower in the works. This made me think, and I think it might be easier to run a roots blower on a six than a turbo. I would like to have the magneto, but don't think that the cost will out weigh the benefits. The main reason I thought i would have to run one was clearance of the intake. Does anyone know if a stock distributor will clear a LS1 style head. I know that the intake ports would be angled upward but I don't know how much. Some of my friends suggested that instead of running a magneto that it would be easier to run a crank trigger and coil-over-plug setup. How would someone go about that particular setup. I know that MSD sells crank triggers, but I don't know if I could adapt one of their setups to work. To me this is sounding difficult quick. I just want something simple reliable and streetable. I can give a little on the streetable part, but I don't want to waste a large amount of money on something that is just going to give me headaches, but at the same time I want something different, something that looks old school dragsterish. I have a lot of dirt track friends so sprint car parts are easy to come by. However like everyone else money is not. I am looking for the most cost effective way of getting a modest power increase, with parts that are readily available to me. I am not afraid of fab work. I know some will be involved, but I don't want to have to engineer a one off work of art in order to drive my truck again. Now that I have said that , I would like some input from anyone willing to throw in their two cents about what they would do to get those results. Please any ideas are accepted. I keep hearing the same ones over and over from my v-8 buddies.

 

[Anonymous]

Some of my friends suggested that instead of running a magneto that it would be easier to run a crank trigger and coil-over-plug setup. How would someone go about that particular setup. I know that MSD sells crank triggers, but I don't know if I could adapt one of their setups to work.

There are probably numerous ways to rig up crank trigger ignition on a 300, but to me, barring a razor-thin budget, there is only one worthwhile option: Electromotive DIS, whether its XDi (distributorless spark only) or TEC (total engine control - fuel, spark, vtec, & whatever else you can dream up). I have installed an XDi set up on a carbureted engine that had been dyno-tuned with a decent aftermarket ignition system and seen a 15% gain in power with the same timing settings. Its that freakin good, and accurate.

Heres a link to the picture of the set-up. You can see the coil packs sitting on top of the rudimentary stand in front, and thats all there is. No computers - you adjust the timing twisting knobs on the coil pack base. At least thats how it worked years ago when I set that engine up.

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/cust ... 270-kg.JPG

Now, for the bench racing:
To make it work on a 300, you could probably use Electromotive's SBF trigger wheel setup and make it work on the 300's pulley. You'd be on your own for mounting the magnetic sensor bracket, but with mild fabrication skills or a buddy with a mill & some aluminum stock it wouldn't be a big deal. And then strip a distributor down to its shaft to plug up the hole & drive the earl pump.

I think XDi is cool, but the way I see it, if you're going through all that trouble just to get DIS, you might as well add world class fuel control capability to it with their TEC3 programable EFI unit. Theres no reason to hate computers, we're all using them right now.

Electromotive --> http://www.directignition.com

Just a little more bench racing: I would run a boosted carburetor before I messed with a hilborn style set up. If you can get a great deal on the hilborn parts, then resell them on eBay for a profit and use the cash to buy something more suitable for a 300 anyway. No sense in forcing yourself to use something thats not ideal just because its cheap. --> I'd like to play with a blow through or even (gasp!) a draw through carb'd 300 one day.

Someone mentioned using mechanical injection off a Mercedes (gas engine, I'm guessing) - thats a really cool idea & I've seen a system like that retrofitted to daily driver VW Bus. It's most likely Bosch CIS/ K-Jetronic, like a ton of European cars used in the 80's, which will supposedly run anything and is a Continuous Injection System. Theres only 1 wire on the fully mechanical version, and I believe that it has enough adjustment built in to compensate for a lot of different variables. I don't know if it was ever used with a turbo, from the factory at least...


There used to be a guy that did crazy stuff with K-Jet and sandrails, but I can't find him right now. I remember it being Miller CIS or Miller Injection or something.

Good Luck with the project.

 

[351wF-250]

Thanks flat4vw, I really like the XDI system I think I will get something like that instead of what I was planning on using. As for the Fuel injection I would prefer to stay full mechanical. The main idea behind this is that electronic fuel injection requires a lot of tuning per application and I have friends with the Holley injection on their 93 chevy trucks and they still haven't got it sorted out yet. I don't want that. I would prefer something with equal runners, i.e. mechanical fuel injection, and something fairly simple to get to work. Like I said I plan on using a FS1 head, so it won't be exactly like building one for a 300. Originally I was going to make a 3x2 carb setup, but with the new plans of a FS1 head that went into file 13. I have heard several people mention Mercedes mechanical injection. Any info on what years and what to look for. I work at an auto parts store so I have plenty of time to look and call around and find them. As for computers I don't hate them as much as hate having to deal with the extra work they cause. They are like quadrajets, when they work they are great, when they don't you can't pay someone to get rid of them.

 

[rbohm]

8) the biggest hassle with mechanical fuel injection is getting the fuel curve right. the barrel valve isnt designed for street use. the first 1/4 will work ok at low speed, but after that it goes full rich. you can offset that somewhat by using a low speed bypass valve to bleed fuel back to the tank, and using a larger "pill" to lean out the overall fuel mixture. by the way, dont buy a multiple pill valve, they tend to not work as advertised due to internal fuel leakage. you might also run a smaller pump than one normally would to run a lower fuel pressure. one thing i recommend to make the plumbing easier is to use a secondary holding tank to keep your main pump primed. make sure it is above the level of the pump. you can feed the secondary tank with an electric pump, such as the carter pump, and control the fuel level in that tank with a float bowl from a holley carb.

 

[Thad]

Go with the Hillborn stacks, throttle body/ manifold but not the pump.
There is a huge difference between a racing mech pump and a street mech pump

Bosch/ Mercedes 6 cylinder mechanical pump has a rack down the side adjusted by a cam linked to the throttle. This rack adjust pump output.

This is the set up that Ak Miller had on his 300 Mustang that he drove to Bonneville salt flats ran then drove back to LA. He made several runs around 160 - 170 mph.

He did not have the Hillborn manifold, etc so he made his own out of what he referred to as muffler-moly. Some where in the archive is the HMR article about it.

Falconer also worked with the Mercedes/ Bosch pumps both 6s and 8s for CamAm racers.

Why not wait a little longer for the alum head AZCoupe is coming out with, better chance to fit or at least easier to fit the Hillborn manifold. 6banger bill head has the Chevy tall and narrow ports. The ignition problem would be easier to solve too.

For what it is worth, a little caution about the Fs1 head, some issues were mentioned here, don't remember what. Another post was about him reniging on an ebay sale. He failed to use a minimum start bid or a reserve, then pulled out AFTER bidding started. Refused to sell to winner.

 

[Lazy JW]

The mechanical fuel injection systems mostly derive from the aviation industry. Back in WW2 during the Battle of Britain the Germans enjoyed a significant advantage over the British pilots because their Daimler-Benz engines had fuel injection which was pretty much impervious to high g-force manuevering while the Brit's Rolls-Royce powerplants were still using carburetors. The British managed to capture a few German planes, copied the mechanical fuel injection sytems, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Mechanical fuel injection is great for high-performance piston engine fighter planes. Not much need for idling (no stop lights in the sky) and fighter planes typically ran in two modes, high power, and REALLY high power! They don't run for long periods on the ground because the engines overheat rather quickly without that high speed airflow through the radiators.

Pretty much just the opposite of what is needed for a street car. Works great on the race track, especially when high g-forces make a carburetor problematic.
Joe

 

[351wF-250]

Yeah after doing more research I have decided to use a K-jetronic system off of a '78 Mercedes 280se. This system is pretty universal and very simple. Almost all of it is mechanical, except for two sensors that read water temperture for a air heater, for cold weather, and a cold start injector. And if you don't mind the hesitation on start up you don't even need them. This system was used on several things from ferrari, to mercedes, to volvo. New parts for it aren't cheap, but a careful eye on Ebay can nab all the necessary parts. I bought all the injectors for mine through Advance Auto Parts for about $160 using the bosch #0437502047. This is really cheap compared to new electronic injectors going for $95 a piece. A good site for a lot of in depth info on this is http://www.auto-solve.com/mech_inj.htm. It really explains it well. Also this system is very boost friendly. Just turn up the fuel pressure and you are good to go. However due to me wanting a FS1 head I have decided to turn away from the turbo concept. A small M90 blower will do just fine. This is the same blower that is found on GM and Ford 3.8's. This is my plan, however none of this could have come about if it weren't for the helpful people on this site. So I want to personally thank all parties involved. If anyone has any questions on injector flow rates I have found a excel table with several on it. I would be very happy to pass it on to anyone who needs it. And like always I appreciate any critisism on my plan. It is better to question and fix now than to buy and find out the hard way. Thanks again.