My Second Build (It's a long story)

[bubba22349]

Yes cams lifters as a general rule should be replaced together however I have reused cams when they were still in spec or very good condition, unless I have very good set of used lifters showing no signs or wear then I replace with a new set of lifters. In your case with so little run time on the cam and lifters I would not have a problem reusing the lifters again. I usually will try to use matched sets, but In my OPINION using one Sealed Power lifter will be okay if your pressed for time. If you do replace one or all the lifters know that you will also need to treat it as if it's a brand new install and redo the cam break in procedure. Good luck

 

[Mr Comet]

Doing the breakin will be no problem. I followed your advise found a c clip in good condition from older lifter and put the clay smith lifter back together. From what I could see the inside of the lift consisted of a piston and a spring. Is that correct? I also noticed there was no pressure left in the old lifter I stole the clip from. Is that how a person knows the lifter is no longer good? The school of hard knocks is an excellent teacher. I have all the lifters on the shelf in the order they came out of the old block. The one which lost it's clip was number 9 (John Lennon song) Can I degree the cam now with only the lifter for cylinder one in place?

 

[bubba22349]

Doing the breakin will be no problem. I followed your advise found a c clip in good condition from older lifter and put the clay smith lifter back together. From what I could see the inside of the lift consisted of a piston and a spring. Is that correct?

(Yes that's all there is to the inside of a lifter the spring, the piston, top retainer (disk), and then the C clip lock.)


I also noticed there was no pressure left in the old lifter I stole the clip from. Is that how a person knows the lifter is no longer good?

(You can't really go by that once the lifter is removed from is bore in the block or even in an engine that has sat for overnight the oil pressure will bled down. Generally the parts inside the lifter (ie spring and piston) will out last the lifter body which is the part that wears out over time from rubbing friction against the cam lobe ie from the valve spring pressure.)

The school of hard knocks is an excellent teacher. I have all the lifters on the shelf in the order they came out of the old block. The one which lost it's clip was number 9 (John Lennon song) Can I degree the cam now with only the lifter for cylinder one in place?

Yes you can degree the cam using the number one lifters. Good luck

 

[Mr Comet]

Well I am being set back once again and sharing this for those who may not know. (like me) When you are getting machine work done the shop may ask you to bring in your camshaft. This is so incase one of the journal bearing get slightly warped in the install the machine shop can test the camshaft for fit. Perhaps a minor cut of the bearing is needed while it is at the shop to insure proper fit. Now my camshaft will not go in all the journals the last one will only go in about a quarter of the way. This is after I installed the crank and pistons. So the shop needs a bare block to do the adjustment now. The shop may have asked for the camshaft at the beginning but they never expressed the reasons for the request if they did. I could have brought one to them even if it wasn't the one I was going to use in the engine. As stated about I didn't know this could happen and I am sharing this hopefully to help someone from making the same mistake.

 

[Econoline]

Yep, very important. And like you say, they can use the old camshaft, not necessarily the one that will be used. Most machine shops have camshafts laying around for this, but few have one for a small six.

 

[drag-200stang]

Each cam journal is a differant size,may have the bearings out of order.

 

[First Fox]

Each cam journal is a differant size,may have the bearings out of order.

Yep. Or they did not install the rear cam bearing from the front and it is crooked. It is a common shortcut and doesn't always lead to problems. I have a cam bearing installation tool here Denny if you want to bring the block and cam by. I will be here Monday.

 

[xctasy]

The advice I've always gotten from those who do I6 engine upgrades is that wear rate in bearings is very low, and its not worth installing new bearings unless the engine has had a major problem with dirty oil or a cam shaft failure Pulling out the old cam can varify this.

Usally, the removal of the oil galliery plugs, which is a tough job, is the best effort. The bearings are protected by the oil supply, which is generous on small sixes. I've got two old rebuilt 200 I6's. done about 300 000 miles each, and they are on there first cam bearings after rebuilds back in the 80's.

Replacment bearing types vary between types of 200 I6 Fords (there are Aussie, US, and Argentine versions which have different sizes), and the alignment of oil holes and the correct hole arrangment needs to be duplicated for non cross flows and hydraulic lifter engines. The placement drifts are easy to come by, but as long as the oil galleries are cleared, you do not have to replace them.


If there is a problem, get help form an expert. The factory rebuild manuals show the details, but the replacement bearings aren't always the same, so the machinist has to do it properly for you.

 

[Mr Comet]

When I was getting the camshaft issue resolved today the machine shop guys said NOT to use the assembly lube on the rings or cylinder walls which I had done the last build and this build. Instead the instructions was for some brad penn startup oil on the rings and cylinder walls. Now I did not dream up the assembly lube on the rings idea my self. Someone on the forum said it was the way to go. Can a person go either way on the build, oil or assembly lube? Royal Purple people say do not use their assembly lube on rings. Also the shop is against the use of regular oil and zinc additive during the first 500 miles. They say the additive really doesn't mix up well right out the gate. Any opinions?? You guys on the forum have helped me thru most my previous issues so I value your opinions.

 

[First Fox]

Oil is better to use on rings than assembly lube Denny, but putting almost anything on the rings is better than nothing at all. A lot of this is academic and more for peace of mind and for something for us nerds to talk about and the other guy is of course always wrong. Your using assembly lube on the rings of your previous build do not wipe out the ring seal if that's what your shop is implying. I have assembled engines hat I knew would not be started for many months and I used moly grease on bearings as well as piston rings and I am not kidding. A light engine oil is best when the engine will be fired right away, but if the engine will sit a long time, the oil will all disappear before it is first cranked and the point if these lubes us to remain in place until the engine is run the first few crucial seconds and pressurized oil takes over and does it's magic. A heavy grease or assembly grease while jit the best choice, are better than the "proper" oil which has all ended up in the pan over a long period of storage. I am sure someone will think I am stupid but my rule with assembly lubricants is this:
If an engine will be first started within hours or days, I use engine oil. If it will be first started within several weeks I use STP. If it will sit for several months or more, I use grease. That's it.

The exception here is the cam and lifters Denny. A flat tappet can requires a proper camshaft assembly lube to be utilized, especially with today's crappy oil. A roller cam of course can be assembled using engine oil or whatever assembly lube used elsewhere in the engine.

 

[Mr Comet]

Crank. cam and pistons are all installed but it is very difficult to turn crankshaft with everything assembled. All I have is a 14 inch pipe wrench for turning counter clockwise. Last time I degreed the cam engine was installed in the car, this time it is on a stand and the engine isn't as steady if I have to reef on the wrench to turn over the crank. This time it's in the middle 50s last time 70s temp. Can I degree the cam with only a couple of pistons installed to less the drag? I used a different assembly lube this time then last as well.

 

[First Fox]

How hard is it to turn the crank with the short block assembled? If it is tight enough to alarm you, you should check it. Do you have a beam type torque wrench? If so pop it on the crank but and see about at where it breaks and starts turning. If its 20 or 30 foot pounds you are probably OK and maybe you are being cautious. If it is 50 or 60, something is wrong.

 

[bubba22349]

X2 on First Fox's recommendations hope it's nothing too serious ! Is this now after the cam is installed that's causing it turn harder or was it like that before with the crank, rods, and pistons assembled? The cam should turn real easy installed in the block before the timing chain is put on. Good luck

 

[Mr Comet]

I removed the timing set and the cam turned easily. However the crank wouldn't turn on it's own without the cam. I removed the rear seal cap and that didn't help. So I removed piston 3 & 4 and the crank turned but with a fair amount of effort. I removed 2 and 5 and the crank turned fairly easily. When I installed my last cam it turned very hard at times but I just figured that was the way it is. While the cam and crank are turning easily with 1 and 6 pistons installed I am going to degree the cam. Thanks for the help.

 

[bubba22349]

Good idea it will be much easier to degree the cam! Well you also found where to look for the trouble in 2,3,4, & 5! So you might want to double check the ring gaps and piston clearance on those 4 cylinders. Good luck

 

[Mr Comet]

A huge thanks goes out to First Fox who helped me locate the issue. I had all my rod caps on backwards. To me it seemed like a small issue but the proof is in the operation of the engine. Now with the caps on correctly the pistons cam and crankshaft all turn with very little effort. FF also helped me see how to check the rings for proper clearance. I could have easily stolen his ring compressor which is much nice then mine. Learned some tricks to coat the rings so I don't loose their positions. It is important to oil the threads of the bolts and studs as well.

It is important to work on a very clean surface, (mine needs much improvement). Once again tons of thanks to fellow forum member First Fox. Now I can continue on with this build. Do I use the blue thread lock on the two oil pump bolts?

 

[drag-200stang]

I see no down side to using blue loc tight, so why not.

Was the oil plug inplace?

 

[Mr Comet]

Yes it was, thanks for asking.

 

[bubba22349]

A huge thanks goes out to First Fox who helped me locate the issue. I had all my rod caps on backwards. To me it seemed like a small issue but the proof is in the operation of the engine. Now with the caps on correctly the pistons cam and crankshaft all turn with very little effort. FF also helped me see how to check the rings for proper clearance. I could have easily stolen his ring compressor which is much nice then mine. Learned some tricks to coat the rings so I don't loose their positions. It is important to oil the threads of the bolts and studs as well.

It is important to work on a very clean surface, (mine needs much improvement). Once again tons of thanks to fellow forum member First Fox. Now I can continue on with this build. Do I use the blue thread lock on the two oil pump bolts?

congrats on finding and fixing the problem with your short block!

 

[First Fox]

You are welcome my friend. I am glad I could offer some help and that between the two of us we were able to overcome all odds and by the the grace of some higher power, were able to... clean your workbench.

Ahahaha.. Told you it was coming. 8) now makwy sure to send me a Christmas card and let me know when you get the STP cleaned off your floor. It will probably take that long for it all to come up completely.