New 200 build is running!

[falcon60]

Hi all-

Just did an intro over on the other page,and thought I'd let you know what I've been up to. I have a '60 Falcon 2 dr HT with 144/3 spd manual. Too slow for me,so I built a 200. I work in an engine shop,so all machine work was done by me. I used 6cc cast pistons (.040"),decked the block .045" to get the pistons .005" out of the hole. The head is a C5 casting with 1.69/1.38 valves,all new hard seats and guides installed,pocket ported and guide bosses cleaned up,carb hole enlarged to 1.750 and radiused into the log.Springs are 302 exhaust and retainers are 302 intake. Pressure is 90-95 closed and 210-220 open.Camshaft is a FSPP 264/264 .440 lift on 110 lsa advanced 3 degrees with a roller timing set (Thanks Mike!). Compression is just under 10:1 and quench is .037" with a Victor gasket. Carb is a modified YF from a '75 pickup with a 300 big six. Exhaust is a '68 manifold.
I test drove this thing for the first time yesterday and again tonight,and it flat hauls! I can't believe how strong it is,and it doesn't ping at all on 87 octane. That's amazing because the cranking compression pressure is 190 psi.I figured it would want 91 octane for sure. The power is fantastic-it feels like a 289 rather than a six.In fact it might outrun a 289 from a 60 mph roll-on. I am very impressed-it's going to be a lot of fun. Now I need a T5 or an SROD in the Falcon and I'll be set.

Terry

 

[matt1967]

you cannot saftly run 87 on 10:1, it may not ping when you can hear it, but once it's under load and you cannot hear it, I'd bet it's pinging. you should run 91 or better octane

 

[addo]

Matt - would you think the modified quench distance could help in this case? I'm assuming most of our pinging at the lower end of onset comes from hot spots.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back terry and All:

I'm running just under 10:1 on my 250 also. I'm at 5,000 ft elevation which helps me to get by on 87 octane in the cooler months. I also spent the time to polish the chambers, which also helps.

I'm guessing your 300 YF carb has you running on the rich side too.

Did you;
*back cut the intake valves?
*add an exhaust port divider?

I hope you have an improved exhaust system in your future plans.

I'm running an SROD and quite like it with the extra torque of my 250. I like it even better now that I went to an 8" rear with a 3.00:1 rear gear. It made 1st gear alot more useable. A T5 may be a better choice for a 200, especially if you intend to abuse it.

Matt makes a good point about knock you can't hear. Watch your plugs for signs of "peppering". It shows as black speck on the white porcelin. You didn't memtion what ignition you're using, but a step colder spark plug would help too. Don't use any more advance than is actually useful.

Enjoy.

Adios, David

 

[LUCKY13]

Watch the plugs for the peppering, this will tell you the story you need to know. As long as no black specs, or aluminum deposits you should be fine.

But you may even find more power going to 93 fuel with more timing, just have to test and tune to see what the engine likes. No two engines are alike so trust your plug readings.


Jess

 

[matt1967]

Matt - would you think the modified quench distance could help in this case? I'm assuming most of our pinging at the lower end of onset comes from hot spots.

it may help a little, and it may run fine with the right timing, but if it were my engine, I wouldn't take the chance on a brand new rebuild a iron head, I'd run 91 or better. on an aluminum head it would be OK, because it cools faster than cast iron, more compression could be run with less octane.

 

[falcon60]

Thanks for the comments addo,David,Lucky 13 and all. I am a true believer in tight quench....in fact extra quench area is the reason I used the earlier head with the larger flat area and smaller chamber. Yes it takes a bit more work to get the results but the details are what makes a successful build,and this engine seems to be a nice example so far. I have read the plugs every time I have driven the car so far (drove it to work 17 miles one way today) and there is no sign of peppering,the color change is at the center of the bend on the side electrode and the center electrode and it's surrounding porcelain "ditch" are clean with no balling of metal or signs of overheat. I gave the engine a bit more timing after the initial test drive and plug inspection showed that it wanted it. This engine does not have any detonation at any speed. The plugs say so,the piston tops say so and my ear says so. That's good enough for me. I tune both my race cars this way and they never have problems with detonation.
I am planning on a header before too long....just need to get the finances in order and sort out some other parts of the car too. The port divider is welded in so I'm ready when the time comes.The intakes are back cut at 30 degrees.Thanks for the vote for the T5,that's the way I've been leaning.The torque curve of this engine seems like it would be a great match for the ratios. I also have an 8" Mav rear waiting to freshen up and install.(Lots to do,lol!)
The carb from the 300 really runs nicely,and the plugs show a nice fuel ring way down deep inside where the bottom of the porcelain meets the steel shell. Just a hint of color there...looks right to me. Also there is no sign at all of any heaviness in throttle response-very crisp with a strong reponse at any throttle opening small or large.I do intend to check carb tuning with an Innovate LM1 a co-worker has.We jetted his AFB on a 318 Plymouth and got it dialed in so nicely. It's a very good tool.
Again,thanks for all the comments-I just love this car and now it's a real blast with power under the hood!

Terry

 

[LUCKY13]

Good deal Falcon60, thats the way the go about it. Find the aswers and give it what it want. Thats way I say no two engines are alike. There has been alot of advancments in combustion chamber tech lately and I have seen 11.5 to 1 engines running on pump gas because it had a good burn in the chamber.

The LM1 like all other widebands are exactly what you said, a good tool. But nothing can take the place of plug readings. There has been some info about the widebands that has come out lately about pressure in the exhaust pipe effecting the readings of the sensor. Turns out there is even info on the spec sheets for each sensor to show how much it can change the readings when there is pressure in the pipe. This would effect turbo engines the most but it just goes to show not to put all your faith into a wideband system. But basicaly backpressure in the exhaust will cause the sensor to read off. Makes me wander how many people have blown motor because of relying on a wideband for info and never looking at the plugs.

Anyway it sounds like you have a good handle on things and a real enjoyable car. Aint it cool how the right effort can bring a older setup like this to performance levels such as this. LOL the Hondas & the stock Mustangs will never know what hit them.

Good Luck and keep us updated.


Jess

 

[falcon60]

Jess,thanks for the heads-up on the exh system pressures affecting wideband readings. I hadn't heard that yet and it's good to know. I do consider the wideband's main helpful use to be part-throttle fuel settings and economy- like you I'll stick to plug readings for the real combustion chamber info under power. It really is neat to tweak an older design and have it respond this way.I think that's the most fun for me. It doesn't always work this well with every engine type I get to mess with,but the efforts with quench and combustion chamber improvements always help.I'm really fortunate to have a full engine machine shop's tools and equipment at my disposal.

Terry

 

[LaGrasta]

Congratulations on such a nice build. This is a great story of a smart build done right with the intended results. I'd be curious to see the hp numbers.

I can only imagine what FSPP will be offering in a crate build. It should allow us average guys to puchase a similar strong build with conisistant results.

 

[Anonymous]

There has been some info about the widebands that has come out lately about pressure in the exhaust pipe effecting the readings of the sensor. Turns out there is even info on the spec sheets for each sensor to show how much it can change the readings when there is pressure in the pipe. This would effect turbo engines the most but it just goes to show not to put all your faith into a wideband system. But basicaly backpressure in the exhaust will cause the sensor to read off. Makes me wander how many people have blown motor because of relying on a wideband for info and never looking at the plugs.

Jess, you are blowing this way out of proportion. I don't know any turbo guys running the wideband in the up-pipe to the turbo.
A naturally aspirated car isn't going to build enough pressure to affect a wideband o2.

Most people nowadays are humble enough to read the instructions that come with the wideband, and they tell you in there that it can't take high heat or pressure. I mounted mine in the downpipe about 4 foot from the turbo.

 

[falcon60]

I figured I've babied this 200 enough now (been running the snot out of it since it had 20 miles on it,lol) so yesterday I took it out and ran a few passes on the G-tech. Still has the old stock exh system from the 144 (except '68 manifold) and I have to Granny shift the 2.77 trans to keep it alive,so the ET suffers some from that. The best pass was 17.60 at 81 mph... I'd bet it would be a full sec quicker if I could sidestep the clutch and not break the trans.
I know the G-tech is optimistic a bit on mph,but how does this compare with any times the rest of you have on mild builds like this? Let me know ET/MPH numbers and the kind of build you're running. Thanks!

Terry (lots more in this thing!)

 

[falcon60]

I have decided to do a fairly major change in order to install the T5 and clutch that I want to run. The 8.5" clutch bothers me....I will destroy it if I know me,lol. So.....I'm going to run a 10.5" 5.0 'stang flywheel (neutral balanced)and clutch,and to do that I needed a Low-Mount 200 block.I found one,took it to work (I work in a machine shop) and bored it .040 and decked it .058" to get .032" quench. I will be swapping all the engine parts from my just-built 200 into the new block when I get the trans/clutch/8" rear end parts gathered up. The changeover should be underway by the end of the year.I have a cable-clutch conversion from Mustang Steve on the way to allow me to run the stock 5.0 bell.Now I need to find a good set of 3.25 or 3.50 gears for the 8".
The .032" quench is .005 tighter than I am running now,and will bump my compression to 10.1-10.2 . I see no evidence of detonation on 87 octane now so I'm pushing the envelope a bit further,lol. I'll soon know if I'm crazy or not.......
By the way,measured quench on the stock '82 200 Capri engine I took the LM block from was .030" . That was with a .015 shim gasket and pistons .015 in the hole......stock original.

Terry

 

[Gene Fiore]

Let me know ET/MPH numbers and the kind of build you're running. Thanks!

Hi Falcon60, I have a 71 Maverick with a 250, C-4 trans and 3.00 open rear. It is completely stock except for an aftermarket air cleaner and timing advanced to 12deg. I have turned a best of 17.69 at 75mph. I agree with you that without having to baby your tranny you would be in the 16's for sure...maybe even low 16's. I think your mph also indicates that. Maybe others on this board will chime in here...

I think with the addition of headers ( which I have sitting in my garage ), FSP dizzy and some 3.55's I could get into the high 16's. That's pretty decent with a stock motor. I can't wait to do the complete rebuild with all the goodies....should haul a$$...

 

[falcon60]

Very repectable performance,Gene! You will fly after the rebuild for sure. Thanks for posting your times-it helps me get an idea whether I'm in the ballpark or not. I'm sure having fun driving the Falcon now-can't wait to get the 5 spd in there.

Terry (cleaning the VERY messy shop today)

 

[80Stang]

f60, your setup seems beefy, and you have your next steps pretty easily at hand. Good job!
Consider a header, good sparks (like Mike's DUI dizzy) and a 2V. Then your 200 could run into 16's on a good cool day with the T5.

Sending you a PM.

 

[Anonymous]

I know the G-tech is optimistic a bit on mph,but how does this compare with any times the rest of you have on mild builds like this? Let me know ET/MPH numbers and the kind of build you're running. Thanks!

Terry (lots more in this thing!)

I ran a "doggy" 16.31 @ 83 mph with some problems I am trying to sort out.


Your build sounds like its runnin pretty well!

Later,

Doug

 

[falcon60]

Hi guys-

The Falcon is back together with the Low-Mount 200,T5 and 8" rear. I drove it for the first time today and it is just great! The current 2.79 gears are a bit tall but I am pleasantly surprised at how well the 200 pulls them in 5th gear with a .68 OD ratio. I'm only turning 1750 rpm at 65 mph and didn't figure it would handle it....but it just does. A 3.25 gear would be just about perfect for this setup. The cable clutch conversion and 10.5" clutch/bellhousing from a late '80s 'stang work flawlessly too. I did deck the block for even tighter quench than the .035" I ran on the high-mount block....it's now .030-.032" and compression ratio is 10.2 with absolutely no ping on 87 octane. Sure is fun shifting that 5-spd and having the 200 always in the sweet part of the torque curve.
Thanks to all for the valuable info posted here (and in the Falcon Six handbook)-sure made the swap easier.

Terry

 

[Anonymous]

Great!!

Now you need to take it to the track and see what it runs....or maybe after you get a header on.

 

[Funky Cricket]

then you are running a v8 t5?

this engine has torque all over, i don't think you could miss a sweet spot if you tried!

Glad to hear it is running good. Sad to hear your original block came out of a capri.. I will be looking for one in the future with a 200 in it. they are becoming rare, I may need to get a v8 one and rip it out to put in a 200!