All Small Six New ford guy needing some driveline ID help

[5akman]

I know this is a vehicle forum but I'm hoping someone can help me with my recently purchased ford powered forklift. It's a 3 freeze plug six cylinder so that makes it a 144 cu in vs a 170 cu in correct? It has a manual trans (435 ) I believe but it seems as if its got a reverse shifting pattern somehow as with the engine in the back of the rig, trans forward (toward the mast), it shifts with 4 fwd speeds and one reverse. How is this done? Could it be a reverse rotation motor coupled to a standard pattern manual trans? I've spent a lot of time thinking about how this is done and can't figure it out!

I was also interested in swapping the manual trans out for an automatic, just for ease of use by the operator. What auto trans will bolt to this engine? What bellhousing would I need?

Thanks for any help !

 

[bubba22349]

Welcome to the Ford Six forum please post more pictures of your fork lift it would be interesting to see, I grew up a few blocks away from The Champ Forklift Company. Three freeze plug are usally a 144 or 170 six but there were some early 200's with three freeze plugs too. They were made in the last half of 1963 and in the 1964 model year, find the blocks casting / design numbers and the date code as well as the same for the heads numbers it will give more info. The only auto trans that bolt directly to a small block Ford six are the 2 speed Ford O Matic and the 3 speed C4 trans, however since yours has the NP 435 trans that isn't normally used on these small engines they are a very heavy duty trans that usually is used in the F250, F350 and bigger Ford trucks and it had to be adapted to fit on the small six so there maybe other options but I would need to see the bolt pattern of the bell housing. Then you might be able to adapt the bigger and stronger C6 trans. You could also convert over to a more modern hydrostatic drive were you just use a lever to control forward and reverse this wouldn't be so hard to do if you can find the parts at a reasonable cost and have ability or know people that can help fabricate a few parts.

To answer your other question I don't think it was nessisary for them to use a reverse rotation engine since the engine is already setting backwards in the chassis and there probally isn't any form of a reverse gearing in the trans. Though I have worked on forklifts many times doing tune ups, Maintance, small repairs, and Hydrolic repairs I have never tore apart one of their transmissions since they are quite strong rarely is there a problem so don't know for certain what would be or if any is different I would need to see the parts to know for sure. I think it It works this way because of what would be the rear axel on a truck chassis is used as the front axle on a fork lift, the whole chassis is turned around in a forklift from how it would be in a regular truck. Then the Thrid member of the front drive axle is flipped so the piñon and ring gear is on the opposite side of the axle so that its turning in reverse compared to a regular truck axle. I believe that they use the Rockwell type truck Thrid members in many of the forklifts. From the big trucks I had worked on years ago that used these type axles I think I remember that their bolt pattern the same spacing all around as well as the Thrid member being compleatly round so I think they can be bolted in eigther way. Maybe there is also a forklift mechanic on our site that can tell you better how it works. Hope that answers some of your questions. Best of luck with your fork lift.

 

[5akman]

Attached are some pics, I can't find anything on the rig to identify it as to make/model. I do know that it was previously used to load bins of olives from the orchard to the trucks and the guy sold it because he said the shifting of the manual trans with the 4' of space that the shifter takes up, was too slow. He purchased another lift that has a simple fwd/rev lever on the steering column.

I to would like something faster shifting and I think that having an auto trans with a cable shifter with PRND would be perfect.

Bubba, are you saying that a C4 will bolt up as is or do I need to measure the block to bellhousing mounting holes to confirm that it will work? If it will work, what exact bellhousing am I looking for? Is there a casting number or anything to identify it?

Thanks for all the info!

 

[bubba22349]

Thank you I am glad that you sent the pictures it's nice looking little forklift. Well we need to start over now looking at the picture of the engine if it's still orginal I would peg it as being from a 1961 to 1965 year but this engine is not one of the small block Ford six'es it's the bigger block 223 or 262 Ford Six which makes more sense in a heavy duty use like for a forklift. The 223 was used from 1954 to 1964 in the big Ford cars and the F100, F250, & F350, pickups as well as the bigger trucks up to 1964 and up to 1965 in these type industrial applications, The 262 was used only in the bigger Ford tucks like the F500, F600, F700 ect. and maybe also in this type of an industrial application from 1961 to 1964 in the bigger trucks and also used one year in the F100 to F350 pickups in 1964. All that I seen had the older Borg Waner 4 speed trans In those truck uses. The 223 engines were produced in very large numbers and it's a really tuff bullet proof engine with great used and new parts support because of the million plus of them installed in trucks as well the many used in the fleet, taxi and personal cars. The 262 wasnt built for as long or in of as large of numbers but it is even tuffer built with about 30 pounds more iron in the blocks they have great parts support too.

Finding an Auto trans that's a direct fit for these six'es is a little more difficult since so few had them. The choices would be the old 1954 to 1958 Ford O Matic or the 1958 to 1964 Cruise O Matic the transmission are still common but the tough part is in finding that 223 six cylinder truck bell housing. I don't remember ever see one only a few car ones. There is a kit to mate up the C4 to the 223 and another company that makes adapter plates to mount many other trans later model transmissions to lots of the different older engines and they keep adding new adapters fairly offten so I don't know what all they are making at this time. Or you could adapt a hydro pump and Hydrolic motor to you a hydrostatic drive. Best of luck

 

[5akman]

Bubba,
What tells you its a 223? I ask because this block only has 3 freeze plugs and I was thinking that that confirmed it as a 144 or possibly a 170. Where on the block are any identifying stampings to assist in ID'ing this unit?

I like the idea of a C4 or even th350 if an adapter can be had. Do you have the names of some companies that I might check with. Also, if I was to consider a hydrostatic drive, where do I start looking for those parts (it would be like a skid steer correct?)

thanks again!

 

[61 comet]

Maybe its in the drive axle. Maybe it runs backwards to allow a regular trans and motor

 

[bubba22349]

Hi 5akman, the small 144, 170, and early 200 Ford sixes aren't the only Ford engines that only have 3 freeze plugs in the block. I seen in your picture and recognized it right away by looking at its intake manifold, the head, and valve cover that it's the older style big six with its 4 port intake that can be unbolted from the head. I also grew up with these engines when I was in second grade I got to go with my dad to our local Ford dealer when he ordered his new 1956 F100 with a 223 and 3 speed Tran's. I also helped my dad maintain that 223 over the years and I also learned to drive in that 56 pick up years later and even raced that old pickup in the late 1960's. Up until 2014 I also had a 1954 Ford Customline sedan with a 223 six and the 3 speed with over drive. I realy know those engines quite well and have worked on more of them than I can ever remember for many different people over the 1960's to a just few years ago, plus I will always have a big soft spot in my heart for these old Ford Six's They are such hard workers.

All the US made Ford family of small six's from the 144, 170, 200, and up to the biggest 250 six have a intrigal log intake head combo i.e. the intake and head are cast together in one piece so the intake isn't able to be unbolted and removed.

To further I'd your forklift engine look for Block, head intake etc. Casting / Design numbers on the side of the block and their date codes. Ok I will see in my files those companies that do the trans swap parts. Yes a skid steer would use those kind of parts and many tractors too. Best of luck.

 

[bubba22349]

Hi 5akman so it took some searching they had compleatly change their web site and name but found the company again. They are about the only one left making a couple of trans adapters for the Ford 223 six. The choice is for an Ford AOD Kit (I think that this kit could also be used to bolt up the C4's but you should call them to find out) or they make one for the Chevy / GM trans too so any of their transmission would probally fit. You would need to see what lenght your trans is now and compare with the trans you want to use so it close to same lenght to keep the drive line in the proper angles. I know they make a short tail housing kit for tge C4 and Power glide and pretty sure for the GM Turbo 350's and 400's your driveshaft might need to be shorten up some the trans end will need to be change or adapted to fit into the trans you pick, you will need to use an auxiliary transmission cooler for any of these auto transmissions since there likely isn't cooling line hook up on the radator but check to see if there is. A sharp trans guy can probally disable high gear and maybe also second gear functions that wouldn't be nessisary in a forklift you wouldn't want or need those kind of hiway speeds. You could use a cable shifter or one the old Ford Mustang / Pinto floor shifters of the late 1960's to early 1980's could work or maybe just make a simple lever to select the gear you want. or you could make simple block plate to stop the trans from stifting into higher gears. TransGo makes a "shift Kit" for drag racing that turns the trans into a "stick shift" this disables all the auto shift functions and holding it in the gear of your choice this would be a good idea for saftey to use since you probally would be better off with just (PRNL) park, reverse, neutral, and low gear making plenty quick for a forklift use and the function would be seemular to that the hydrostatic drive. There are also manual shift valve bodys made that do the same thing. Hope this us helpful to you, best of luck.

There was one that was a C4 Adapter but I am not finding it right now but I think the one below might be able to be used for a C4
Ford 223 to Ford AOD Trans Kit

Product Result

Speed Gems manufactures transmission adapters, enabling custom car builders to use various engine and transmission combinations. Proudly made in the U.S.A.!

transmissionadapters.com

Ford 223 to GM Auto Trans Kit

Product Result

Speed Gems manufactures transmission adapters, enabling custom car builders to use various engine and transmission combinations. Proudly made in the U.S.A.!

transmissionadapters.com

 

[chad]

once U have a motor ID U may get yrs too. B nice if U could cross that to the model#, company making the vehicle. Today on-line might turn up an actual manual. Just like the JD420 this could assist getting further. Sometimes U hafta B a sleuth, not go down any dead ends, keep the head up...