Nitrous

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How big of a shot of nitrous can the 300 handle bone stock? And, if you would, mention the reasons for limits. I am not interested in having the maximum, just curious.

I would really like just having something to help shoot me over a steep hill or grade without having to down shift all the time, and not compromise durability, reliability or longevity (first and foremost). Would a 25 hp shot at say 1500 rpm give you much by means of torque gains? Can this even be done, remember bone stock and longevity here.

Thankyou for your time, -Bryan
 
juggernaut":mctxgoho said:
I would really like just having something ... and not compromise durability, reliability or longevity (first and foremost). Can this even be done, remember bone stock and longevity here. -Bryan


I do believe any N2O is going to compromise durability of a bone stock engine with regard to piston ring lands, valves, and head gasket. Good luck.

This topic was recently discussed here at length. Search it out.
 
a friend has a bone stock 302 mustang and he is running 100hp shot of nos, and it has benn fine, so i would think that you wouldn't have a problem with that. i would go 50-75 to be on the safe side
 
No doubt, Naaawwwsss is fun. But it's like playing with gunpowder. Billy down the street may claim it's totally safe, and he may have all his fingers, but that means nothing. For every bunch of Billys, there are a few Dennises that have to learn to tie their shoes with one hand... :shock:

Truth is, if you play with Naaawwwsss, the risk of lunching your motor goes up by an order of magnitude. It all goes to how much you value your motor... :wink:
 
So if you're a chucklehead and don't learn anything about it, you'll blow up your motor. Just like with any other power adder.


-=Whittey=-
 
do some reaserch and do it in gradual steps if you decide to run N2O.
 
25hp at 1500rpm is about 90ft-lbs.

so if you're making aboot 250ft-lbs (thats a good guess for a 300 right? probably more like 260) you'll be making 340 on the giggle gas. Quite an increase.
 
So how about a 15 hp shot then? Basically what your saying is that any nitrous at any rpm is playing with fire. By the way can you even have an on demand nitrous system to manually operate at mid rpm (1500-2000), or is WFO the only option.

Wow 90 ft lbs from a 25 hp shot, is it really that much more torque? Why couldnt the I6 handle that power though, I understand its not the cummins diesel, but can't it support some extra power in stock form? By the way I read previous posts on nitrous and no one really touched on small hp shots for extra umph. If they did I missed it, and there was no mention of the exact problems that would be encountered, i.e. head gaskets, rods, pistons etc. I want to know which item gives way first in these engines.
 
All the nitrous companies reconmend wide open trottle only or 3000 rpms plus. The pistons go first. The problem with starting with a small shot on a stock is you can become a NOS junkie REAL FAST. You can step up beyond the limits of your motor :? We have had good luck with our system and a lot of fun.
 
No experience on this, but have read the fuel system needs to be able to supply enough fuel when you hit it or the lean condition melts pistons. May need upgraded fuel line, fuel pump, larger carb. Smaller shots--under 100 hp--should be OK for stock engine if fuel supply is sufficient. Again, only my research and not real world experience. Have fun!!

Ken
 
Repeat after me. I man's gotta know his limitations! (Dirty Harry!)

Chemically, the nitrous can only ever give a 1.5 times power increase. The power is derived from torque. It is impossible to get a 90 lb-ft increase in torque unless you have a 42 hp power rise.

The stock car may have about 120 hp net at 3500 rpm, and 250lb-ft at 1800 rpm. The most you can expect is about 120*1.5, or 180 hp, a 60 hp increase. Torque could be 375 lb-ft!

This results from a 0.05 lb/sec discharge with the bottle at 920 psi and the auxilary fuel pressure at about 6 psi. You'd use the six point fogger system, with jets around the 16 thou for fuel, and 14's for nitrous.


The really good point is that the peak power rpm drops about 20 % to around 3000 rpm, so it can reduce critical loads on rods and wrist pins becasue it won't be reving as hard. The critical bearing loads always go up with any power increase, and thermal loads increase only slightly. It goes ballistic only if there isn't enough fuel to richen the mixture. The displaced fuel factor is catered for by the nitrous company. In practice, a 120 hp 300 would behave like a 450 cube 2-bbl V8 doing 180 hp. You can't run anything more than a 60 hp kit on a stock 300 I6, period!

There are some 2-bbl nitrous set-ups which are cheap, but these are worse on a six than a 4 or V8, and I'd never want more than a 40 to 50 shot system on a 2-bbl Offy intake. The stock 1-bbl wouldn't like it.

An 80 hp Fogger kit with six nossles could have 18 thou fuel jets, and 16 thou nitrous jets. On an EFI F150 with 155 hp stock, which does an 18 second quarter, this is enough to take it under the 16s with ease.

Nitrous must be used only to its maximum 1.5 times stock limit, and that's it. It'll most likely fail to give a 1.5 times the stock boost. I've never used it, but one guy down here has a wild XA Falcon GT 351 Hardtop with giggle gas, and it is a great street car and a lethal weapon on gas. The real key is that the engine is very close to stock, so it can be done.
 
Sure thing buddy!

(I was gonna be a smart ass and say just read the first and last word of the blurb, and then you'll know it all....but I re-read it and it does look a little fuzzy. I've gone over the top again, Haven't I Whittey...)

Summary? You can't go over 1.5 times the original hp level with nitrous.

The rest of it explains how to not go over 1.5 times the original hp level with nitrous for various states of tune. (A bit of a double negative, sorry) It then details what jet sizes will work. The jet sizes are based on a combo of David Vizard info and later articles from Hot Rod.

The bit about critical loads is important. Nitrous reduces the peak revs needed to give power. A nitrous engine is under less stress in terms of all recipricating components except main bearings. Rod bearings should be under a similar level of stress.


Hope that helps... :? :P
 
Actually the stuff I wanted you to go over is:
xtaxi":376ugwjt said:
You can't go over 1.5 times the original hp level with nitrous.
and
xtaxi":376ugwjt said:
Nitrous reduces the peak revs needed to give power.

I'm just curious as to where you got the 50% increase number. I'm also curious as to where you get the reduced revs info.

nitrous-graph-3-larger.gif

1.5 is like a beginning shot. Something to throw on initially....

If you're going to throw a tiny shot a low rpm, dial back your timing (better yet, get an ignition like the Hi6 that has a built in retarder that you can hook up to the nitrous activation switch).


-=Whittey=-
 
The paper work that came with my kit (OZNOS) states that when using nitrous on an engine with std internals you can add nitrous that is aprox half of the factory Hp output.
So if you engine is making 150hp you can saftly run a 75hp (wet) shot,taking in mind that the engine is in good order (not blowing smoke, equal cyl comp,etc)
Fit a Hi output ingnition system and some colder plugs (to avoid detonation)
use the best quality fuel that you can find and get it tuned on a dyno
and try to aviod the temptation to fit bigger nos jets as you will kill you engine quickly.
Any way I hope this puts your mind at ease and good luck

GASSED250 :nox:
 
The problems with no2 is not mechanical loads on bearings as much as mechanical and thermal loads on the pistons. That is why forged pistons are pretty much manditory on nitroused cars unless you go conservitive or get some serious hypereutectics.
 
Thermal loads are why 1.5 times the existing power level is the practical limit. It's related to the 34% oxgen atmosphere that nitrous gives. In practice, its like a blow torch, and even if you use Heanium coated forged pistons, over that level, the engine will run into detonation. First the spark plugs, then the top of the piston or ring lands. It's 'MC Hammer' time then. There is not much of a treashold.

From Hot Rods tech articles:

p117814_image_small.jpg


One point often overlooked with nitrous and blowers is the massive torque gain realized through either power enhancer. While a budget nitrous kit might only add 125 peak horsepower, it will be worth a 50 percent power increase at peak torque. If the engine makes 300 lb-ft of peak torque, the nitrous will instantly make that jump to 450 lb-ft or more. You’ll feel that!

p105364_image_small.jpg


The common by-product of cylinder pressure is detonation. Detonation starts on any sharp edge or crevice and, with enough pressure (and heat), this will be the result. Also, while moving the top ring upward on the piston makes better power, it reduces the mass of aluminum that absorbs pounding and heat and can mean piston or ring-land failure. Serious nitrous engines should have the top ring lowered on the piston to help the piston dissipate heat and keep the rings cooler. Hedgecock adds that thin-wall piston wristpins will fail in nitrous engines and should not be used. Gianino uses tapered-wall, tool-steel pins.


The increase in torque and power was noted in Hot Rods landmark December 2002 artical on page 66. It covered a 359 cube SBC with a 750 cfm carb in three stages of trim. Bore was 4.04, stroke 3.5, comp ratio 9.74, running 35 BTDC with a dual plane and 91 octane (US mon+ron/2). I must stress, this was a nitrous cam engine. If you use a non nitrous cam, the power on nitrous may be less.

Stage 1:
Dual Plane, 235/240 at 50 thou nitrous cam

445.8 lb-ft at 4500 rpm.
461.4 bhp at 6300 rpm.

Stage 2
Single plane, 114 octane

454.8lb-ft at 4500 rpm
457.6 bhp at 6400 rpm

Stage 3

Single plane #7530 Weiand G-team manifold, 114 octane, 28 BTDC, 8 Nossle Fogger with 28 N20 jets, and 32 gasoline. 900-925 psi N20, 6 psi gasoline auxilary supply to fogger nossels

670.1 lb-ft at 5300 rpm
679.0 bhp at 5400 rpm, not 6400 rpm.

1.47 times stock power, with an 18% drop in peak rpm. 1000 rpm less!


This is info 21 st century style. According to my reference material which was repeated in three of David Vizards 1980's books on Mini A-series, Ford Pinto SOHC, and SmallBlock Chev's, there is a reduction on the power peak speed, with a huge increase in power. The n20 kicks in as a violent increase in torque at whatever rpm it is invoked. You may bend rods below 2500 rpm, or take 1.5 seconds off your quarter mile time.

A nitrous engine will need taller rear end gears, but will have a lower engine speed through the traps if the advantage is taken of the idealized rpm.

Example is the stage 1 engine with 461 hp at 6400 rpm, red lining through the traps at perhaps 6900 rpm in 4000 pound 67 Chevy Imapala with 26 inch slicks.

Gears are 4.56:1, quarter mile 12.0 secs at 114 mph.

With the Stage 3 engine with 679 hp at 5400 rpm in that same Chev, ideal change-up is about 5800 rpm. So doing the idealised Moroso dreamwheel, you'd be looking at 10.5 sec quarter at 130 mph. The ideal gear ratio? 3.42:1!

See? The bearing loads will be huge, but the engine will be under less stress even at 10.5secs, as the engine is down 1100 rpm and optimised to produce power down low.
 
Mate I think that you'd have to be the most useful bloke on that little island way out there in the middle of the ocean
I dont know why us aussies say all thoes mean things about you.
So on behalf of all us aussies id like to thank you for all of the great info that you post on this forum

Cheers :beer:
GASSED250
 
Whittey wrote:-
1.5 is like a beginning shot. Something to throw on initially....

If you're going to throw a tiny shot a low rpm, dial back your timing (better yet, get an ignition like the Hi6 that has a built in retarder that you can hook up to the nitrous activation switch).

I have seen this work so well on a turbo 350 Corvette in a CarCarft mag. It allows you to use a huge truck turbo and get it to spool in micro seconds!

On a normally aspirated car or bike, it may work if you used the Impco Fuel Control valve, and created a square wave actuation like on an ABS circuit. That could mean you are able to control an 80 hp nitrous kit from, say, 2000 rpm or so, and have it cut in and out to control the performance level.
 
back to the original question , I would worry about lifting the tops of the stock pistons with a 100 hp shot of nitrous.
 
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