Problem with Cam purchased from Mike at FSPS?

[Ronn]

I think your right cobra, because the idear that having the exaust lobe open a little longer will help the anemic exaust on these heads anyway. Maybe even out the intake/exaust pattern? It already seems goofy to have a smaller exaust valve anyways since the hot gases are expanded and under more pressure. So helping it exit a little more will free up some more rpm's i think. Not to mention releiving the valve edge a bit from the extreme heat generated by the exiting gases by giving it a more wide open hole if you will. And so if we have both intake and exaust the same, we would still have the breathing problem we had before. To much in and not fast enough out.

I bought the dual pattern thinking this would be helped out a bit. I'm sure it will.

 

[AzCoupe]

There is much debate over dual pattern cams. IIRC, Comp cams states on their website that the dual pattern cams are of no benefit on any motor. Yet, other cam grinders offer dual pattern cams for the inlines. Therefore, they must believe they are beneficial, otherwise why would they offer them. It would be interesting to test a few on an engine dyno to see how they do effect performance.

Another note, I believe Clifford's cams are manufactured by Isky, which does not offer any dual pattern cams (Inline or V8 ), with the exception of one specifically ground for a turbo application.

Ronn, thanks for the appplogy, it was appreciated. Did you look at the end of the cams? Clay Smith stamps their Part# (which is duration and lobe center) on the end, as do all other manufacturers. If you can read the part number, we might be able to determine what the old cam is.

 

[80broncoman]

There is much debate over dual pattern cams. IIRC, Comp cams states on their website that the dual pattern cams are of no benefit on any motor. Yet, other cam grinders offer dual pattern cams for the inlines. Therefore, they must believe they are beneficial, otherwise why would they offer them. It would be interesting to test a few on an engine dyno to see how they do effect performance.

Remember the yellow paint on your cam? I don't know of any cam company that cast there own cams. there are many more cam companys than there are foundrys casting cams.

At one time comp had no dual patteren cams, but they of course gave in to consumers and now have more than a few.
Crane always had a mix, but about 85% are dual pattern cams. just the oppisate of comp.
I am no longer an employee of any cam co and have no stock in any of them. So I can say with no outside interfernce I prefer dual patteren cams.

 

[xctasy]

Point One:

Quote from Pat Ganahl, HotRod, Janauary 1988

Smokey Yunick said of Clay Smith that he is the smartest mechanic he ever met.


Point Two:

An optimized intake, exhast and lobe centre are key to modern camshaft perfromance. It is clear from ohv engine experts from David Vizard to Grump Jenkins, that cams are the heartbeat to any engine. I've seen dual patern cams bahave awfully untill degreed in exactly to spec.

If an engine builder is bold enough to chart his specs, and build them for sale, then they deserve your trust and paypacket.

The better the cam, the harder it is to dial in, becasue its package specific. In most cases, the loss of basecircle diameter has to happen in order to get the lift and valve train geometry right. Acording to theory, the halfway point of the gross lift at the valve should be park the lifter at 90 degrees. The length on the pushrod should be optimized from production pshrods, and just because the base cirlce diameter is smaller, it doens't mean the pushrod has to be longer, or the rocker posts get shimmed up, or anything like that.

Follow the advise of the supplier, and rely on them for your data.

As you guys may know, I'm not American, and shouldn't comment on things I've not personally experienced. I do feel compelled to say something in Cliffords defence:-.

I personally think Clifford gets a very bad rap from this forum, and I'm pleased you guys can talk about them inabsentia without getting a legal writ. In the end, let the people who biy the products speak here. Over here in New Zeland, we have to provide hard details on incompetance, and then pressure legal action. The evidence on Ford Six is that 8 times out of ten, they lose on price and quality of product and service advise after the sale. As far as an on brand experince, it sounds pretty lousy.

However, Clifford aren't wilfully negligent, aren't out to take the money and run, and if they are trading, then let the people decide.

I also know that a dual pattern cam with the right lobe centre and lift for the package will urinate over any single pattern item, so I guess I'm with Clay Smith, Vizard and AzCoupe.

I guess nothing beats a Royal Flush.

 

[Lazy JW]

I think your right cobra, because the idear that having the exaust lobe open a little longer will help the anemic exaust on these heads anyway. Maybe even out the intake/exaust pattern? It already seems goofy to have a smaller exaust valve anyways since the hot gases are expanded and under more pressure. So helping it exit a little more will free up some more rpm's i think. Not to mention releiving the valve edge a bit from the extreme heat generated by the exiting gases by giving it a more wide open hole if you will. And so if we have both intake and exaust the same, we would still have the breathing problem we had before. To much in and not fast enough out.

I bought the dual pattern thinking this would be helped out a bit. I'm sure it will.

Most engines use a smaller exhaust valve because it is easier to push the exhaust out than it is to pull the intake in. Just think about it. In a normally aspirated engine we are relying on atmospheric pressure to push the air/fuel mixture in. As you mentioned, the exhaust gases are expanded and under pressure, this literally blows them out the exhaust port at high speed, this moving mass of gases has a fair amount of inertia and wants to keep moving, plus the piston is coming up and acts as a positive displacement pump, forcing the gases out. Therefore, it has been detirmined by engine designers that it is more valuable to have bigger intakes. The exhaust valve is cooled by transfering heat to the valve seat during those miliseconds that it is closed. Pretty mind boggling Due to the different dynamics if the intake vs. exhaust, it seems unlikely that any single pattern cam would be optimum, but single patterns will certainly be easier for most of us to work with. I really think you could spend a lot of time and money coming up with the 'perfect' cam.
Joe

 

[WhitePony]

I still need help understanding if anyones willing to write a book on it here. I have ordered the falcon six guide

I got my Falcon Performance Handbook last month. It's got a ton of info on rebuilding the sixes, but in the area of cams, it really doesn't say all that much. It has like four paragraphs on general cam info, and then four pages of data that looks to have come from each cam manufacturer.

Most of the handbook really ROCKS, but the cam section REALLY could be fleshed out alot.

Kris

 

[Ronn]

Ok, so how do I convert my measurements above into actual lift using stock rockers/pushrods?

old cam; 242

new cam; 283


These measurements are made subtracting the base circle from the lobe/base circle measurement.


Numbers stamped on new cam are;

6831 10

the old cam just has; MAP and a 0 stamped.

 

[addo]

You could try multiplying those numbers by the nominal stock rockewr ratio of 1.5. With the new cam, that gives 0.4245 lift at the valve; the old one 0.363 lift.

That help?

 

[Ronn]

Thats what I did but thats not what I expected. I expected a 450 lift.

 

[Falcon62]

I still say you need to check gross valve lift with the cam installed, using a solid lifter, and a dial indicator to get exact lift data. While playing with a dial caliper is fun, it isn't going to provide you the specific precision you need to get the exact gross lift between the two cams.

Just my $.02.

 

[Ronn]

Whats a dial INDICATOR? And how is this done? With the head on or off? Sorry for the ignorance.

 

[Lazy JW]

A dial indicator is a precision measuring tool. It has a dial similar to the one on your calipers, but instead of being mounted on a set of calipers it simply has a plunger sticking out of the side of the dial. As you push on the dial it moves the needle on the indicator. They normally come as a dial only, and require the additional purchase of some sort of base to mount it on. I have a universal magnetic mount base that is fully adjustable to allow useage in many positions. Dial indicators are available in many configurations and calibrations. You would need one with a full "One Inch" of travel and calibrated in .001" increments. Maybe someone smarter than me will post a picture of one being used to check valve lift. Anyone?
Joe

 

[AzCoupe]

Just to set the record straight, the cam in question was ground by American Racing Cams, not Clay Smith Cams. I used them when I first started up and bought several cams with this profile. Now days, all of my cams are purchased exclusively from Clay Smith, as they are in my opinion, the very best.

Secondly, it is possible this is a defective cam, or mis-ground. Therefore I think the best course is for Ronn to ship it back to me so I can have it checked out properly. If in fact, it is defective, I can return it, and I will refund Ronn's money in full.

As you all know, I stand behind the products I offer 100%, and this is no exception.

 

[Lazy JW]

Like I said, someone smarter than me Thanks, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Joe

 

[Ronn]

Oh I see, that explains it. I only ordered this a couple months ago, and the part number started with CSC. I ordered a Clay Smith cam, so defective materials are a non-issue now.

I don't want a refund, I want the right cam from the right manufacturer. You have nothing but Clay Smith advertised with the exception of one ARC, and everyone else says Clay is the man. So thats what I want is the best. I've read articles about him and he IS the man. Sorry Mike but this kinda dampers my plans as I have to button up my torn apart engine and it frustrates me.

I'll have it back to you asap.

 

[AzCoupe]

I have no problem swaping cams, but you need to let me know which profile you want? As soon as the other cam comes back, I'll ship the new cam via priority two day. Fair enough.

You state you have read articles on Clay, just out of curiousity, which ones were they? Might be good late night reading.

 

[Ronn]

http://www.claysmithcams.com/index.asp?PageAction=COMPANY

heres the most obvious

 

[addo]

Years ago in my bent eight days, I was schmoozing with a fellow who built the odd motor. He had that 'peasant cunning" ability to mix new and used parts and get a performance engine that lasted well. Anyhow, we were talking cams.

He says "I met this guy in America, bought some cams off him. You should see if he's still doing anything." Out comes the battered address book; he dictates a phone number. "Oh, the bloke's name is George." It turned out to be a direct line to George Striegel of Clay Smith Cams!

Where does this story fit in? Everything this conniving old engine builder told me, has shown up to be true in the long term. So, why would he not be shooting straight with his cam recommendations? I'd probably use a Clay Smith cam, too if I were in the US.

 

[Anonymous]

Late last year I bought a Cam for my 250 2V that had a much smaller base circle than the previous one installed in it. Both cams were from the same company for the same vehicle from memory there was close to a quarter of an inch difference on the base circle. The difference in lift between the two cams was about 50 thou in valve lift and 13 degrees in duration.
Dual pattern cams will work at much lower than 1800 rpm for example a 200/210 at 50 duration cam would work from about 1200rpm in a 250.
My machinist advised me that usually just head porting an engine on the exhaust alone will help increase high rpm power.
I agree with xtaxi dual pattern cams work and work well, although I will not be getting one for my next engine.

 

[Anonymous]

i assembled my new engine two weeks ago in the stock manner in regard to cam angle. I am using a 264-12 fordsix cam and mike recommended i degree the cam, that for my application it would be best to advance it 2-4 degrees.

i had never degreed a cam before, but i did have a dial indicator. i made my own degree wheel. it wasnt too hard but you have to be very accurate and it does require a lot of spinning around on your new bearings.

when i degreed it, it turned out to be retarded 6 degrees when assembled in the stock manner. close comparison of the components showed that the cam gear was retarded 6 degrees. the keyslot is axctually cut slightly off. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the newer OEM style gearsets were retarded for smog; apparently this is achieved by retarding the cam gear.

i ended up shifting the cam gear forward one tooth CW which gives me now about 2-3 degrees advance.

mike at fordsixparts has been very forthcoming and very helpful with these things.

i dont feel too bad about this guy who is blowing off a lot of steam about
his problem when he has no clue. a high lift lobe looks teenier since it it has much less side area and is more pointed. that doesnt have any meaning. obviously you have to put the head and valve train together and use a dial indicator if you want to question the engineering aspects of the issue.

frankie