Ran into a problem I did not expect with the 200 log head

[Anlushac11]

Called to see about getting injector bung holes drilled and getting bungs welded in or alumium bungs epoxied in.

No one wants to touch it. The two pro race shops dont even want to work on cast iron.

 

[fordconvert]

The first two shops I went to for a simple rebuild did not want to work on them either. The guy I use now will do anything. The day I was in there he was doing some heads for a 'hot rod' old 2 cylinder john deere tractor. This shop pays the bills by doing the 'tuner' car motors. I guess there is just not enough demand for good old cast iron anymore.

 

[XFlow_Fairlane]

they are not too hard to weld in.

doing it over (I kinda rushed it) I would have done this...

1. spotfaced and provide a pilot hole for bung.
2. Weld a "button" on the log
3. drilled out on mill using a injector pocket bit


I had drilled out holes a little oversized and then bolted my bungs to a lenght of strap and welded them in. to big problem was the log is not straight on a E0 head.....it angles up at the back. so trying to build a head "level" on a mill table is not too easy. I ended up with one or two injector bungs a little deeper in the ports than the others.

doing it over i I think I would split the fuel rail in half to ease this issue.

for all the effort and $$$ involved it would prob be easier to get mikes head and just get it drilled for injectors. it would be nice if he offered this stock with either freeze plugs or a thread plug in the holes for carb guys.

 

[Anlushac11]

Here's my next idea...

Get some billet fuel rail

Get six EV-1 style injectors

Mount injectors into fuel rail

Place setup on head, mark where injectors go

Drill hole for bungs to slide into

JB Weld aluminum bungs in place

Make brackets to hold fuel rail in place.

Im going to see if I can get some more log heads to lobotimize. Have two now.


Me think it be time to buy a welder and take a welding class. Took a bunch of welding classes in High school but that was thirty years ago.

 

[XFlow_Fairlane]

take a look at my new post in the classifieds.

I could maybe meet over around Evansville.

 

[Anlushac11]

Replied there and here.

Yes I am interested. Just hope cracks can be repaired.

PM sent

 

[MustangSix]

If you machine the bungs and holes to about a .001" tolerance you could just bond them in. The intake shouldn't get much hotter than 300F even in extreme use.

If you machine the holes .0005" undersized, you might be able to use a steel bung and just press them in.

 

[65DropTop]

Called to see about getting injector bung holes drilled and getting bungs welded in or alumium bungs epoxied in.

No one wants to touch it. The two pro race shops dont even want to work on cast iron.

Here is my take on why most shops decline iron welding jobs.

Cast iron's composition does not lend itself to welding. A view of the Lincoln Electric knowledge section (search engine terms: "weld cast iron") notes the following:

1. Cast iron is difficult, but not impossible, to weld. (These are usually repair welds, due to casting or machining defects, not usually joining one part to another.)

2. Because of the nature of cast iron tiny cracks tend to appear next to the weld even when good procedures are followed. If the casting must be water tight, this may be a problem. Some sealing compound may be used.

(Source: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/castironpreheat.asp)

Fuel injectors have at least tens of pound of pressure. So any welded iron joint will be under more than just the normal pressure of liquid flow. Combine that, the other information above about small cracks, with flamability of gasoline and we have the reason why shops decline the work.

We are all frustrated with the poorly aspirated log, but of course prefer reliable, safe engines.

I looked into other possibilities.

First, I thought about casting aluminum parts tapped to screw into a complementary surface made into the log. Possibly the injector could be snugly "sleeved" into the aluminum part and the aluminum part screwed into the log. (Apparently, under normal conditions, dissimilar metals cannot be welded.) Since aluminum expands more than iron the aluminum fitting's expansion into the iron log might improve under operating temperatures.

But there is still another option. One can also cast iron. It has a significantly higher melting point than aluminum, but it can be done. (Search term: melt iron Chastain)(Another term I found useful is "David Gingery" -- of the DIY machine shop build).

The TBI/Tempo solution is interesting, but given the versatility and power of a computer system like MegaSquirt, I started looking at addressing the log.

Certainly replacing the log with the CI or Aussie versions are possible. It's just that I am not a bolt-on guy. Nor very handsome.

 

[Anlushac11]

8)

The late model Fox body Mustangs with EFI used 42lbs fuel pressure at the rail IIRC.

But that fuel pressure would not be seen by the manifold. The fuel pressure would be seen in the injector, the fuel rail and the fuel lines back to teh pump.

With the log head Im looking at running 8lbs boost, maybe 10lbs with E85.


As for the end cylinders running lean and getting too much fuel, I just talked to a guy that is now racing 2.3L 4cyl turbo's and he was stating the airflow balance problem mostly goes away with turbocharging as long as the plenum is seeing even pressure.

At idle the injectors wont be operating on max pressure or flow.

 

[XPC66]

That's correct.... the pressure post pintle is minor.

I don't know what you guys are eluding to, but I can tell you I have converted a few engines to injector, by brazing bosses into the inlet runners and using injectors that have the upstream hose connections (e.g like the Buick 3.8 V6).

Brazing doesn't require so much preheating of the whole cast assembly to prevent hairline cracking. Even 5% silver solder would probably stick quite well.

 

[falcon fanatic]

my machinist has a spray welder that does miracles on cracked cast iron blocks and will pretty much fill any gap. Seems tailor made for such a thing.

 

[XFlow_Fairlane]

the spray welding would prob be best if a "bung" could be built up to later be machined out.

there doesn't need to be too much added really. you only need enough to capture the o-ring on the bottom of the injector.

I would think this could even bee done witha simple stick welder and careful welding. using a high nickle rod and just adding a little bit at a time and allowing plenty of col time should do it.

 

[Ronn]

Check your phone book and see if you have a FastenAll store around...they sell an epoxy base product that will bond just about anything to anything..made special for metals, that works to 1500 degrees. I bought a small can of it to seal up some exaust manifold holes and used it create 2 boss's for a second alternator right on the cast iron block. It can be drilled, tapped, painted and has'nt failed yet, sorry can't remember the exact name of the product, but if you call fastenall and ask them, theres only one product like that they sell, so they will know what you talking about.

 

[Anlushac11]

Check your phone book and see if you have a FastenAll store around...they sell an epoxy base product that will bond just about anything to anything..made special for metals, that works to 1500 degrees. I bought a small can of it to seal up some exaust manifold holes and used it create 2 boss's for a second alternator right on the cast iron block. It can be drilled, tapped, painted and has'nt failed yet, sorry can't remember the exact name of the product, but if you call fastenall and ask them, theres only one product like that they sell, so they will know what you talking about.

Cool, will check it out.

Thanks.

Not any progress on head, trying to get block finished and buttoned up before starting on head.

 

[CNC-Dude]

Holley and other companies im sure offer a tool to machine aluminum,steel and cast iron to form the receiver portion of an injector body. I think your fuel rail idea would be the most practical and cost effective method for attempting this, and you could do it yourself. You also could make a steel bung that is threaded, so you eliminate the need to preheat the head or even weld or braze the bungs, simply thread them into the head with some Hi-temp sealer. I think I still might have some CNC programs for some bungs i've made in the past for some sheet metal race FI intakes if that would help you.

 

[Alfred Lord Tenniscourt]

I think the brazing idea is pretty good and will work quite well. But, if you decide that you need to weld it, there was an old guy who used to weld cast iron up here in Northwest Indiana and got pretty good results. He had a wood stove in his garage, and he would put the parts on top of the stove until they were good and hot. Then he would weld them, and cover them with some kind of insulation he stole from the steel mill where he worked. The parts were then allowed to cool very slowly as he banked the stove for the night and allowed the fire to die...
Good luck.

 

[AzCoupe]

for all the effort and $$$ involved it would prob be easier to get mikes head and just get it drilled for injectors. it would be nice if he offered this stock with either freeze plugs or a thread plug in the holes for carb guys.

I thought about doing just that, but decided against it. While it would be a nice option for those who desire the option, it would be an un-necessary expense for those who don't. To my knowledge, of all the heads sold to date, only two have been drilled for injectors.

 

[Broncitis]

To put injectors in the aluminum head is very easy by any good machime shop, a slight angle needs to be put on the bungs and then the holes drilled out and I bet kevin at extrudabody kept the info for the fuel rail he custom made for myself, everyone involved with my set up was impressed with the way the injector shot at the intake valve and said the distance from injector to valve was ideal and well thought out, the AL head is the only way to go if afforded, its a one of a kind, its not mass produced, so I think the price is a steal and I'm proud to own one from a feller right here in the good ole USA and by the way Mike I may be cranking on it next weekend.

 

[CobraSix]

The reason most shops won't touch that set up is putting Aluminum and Iron together in direct contact is generally a VERY bad idea. The aluminum would end up corroding very quickly unless you did some 'explosive welding' to join the two. There needs to be a phenolic washer or some other insulator between the two to avoid contact (which is why AL heads are fine on Iron blocks because of the head gasket).

 

[rholum]

I just drilled into the runners about halfway between the log and the head using a hand drill, then I took a die grinder and ground the holes out untill they where big enough for the bungs to fit into the hole. It sounds like a pain but it only took a couple of hours to do. I made the fuel rail first so that I could us it to line up my injector bungs. I cut 1/2" steel round stock into six pieces about an inch long and then wrapped them with thin aluminum strips to get them to fit snug into the fuel rail and the injector bungs, this keeps everything straight and makes it easy to get all of the bungs level with each other. Then you can mark them so you know where to take material off of the bottom of the bung so that they don't stick down into the port. They will have to be cut at an angle to match to port and the ones on the ends will end up being a little shorter than the center ones because nothing is staight on this head. Once everything fits I tack welded all of the bungs and removed the fuel rail before welded the bungs in using a mig welder. You just want to weld about an inch at a time and wait until it cools to the touch so that no cracks develope. I made the injector bungs myself by drilling out a piece of 3/8" steel pipe using a 17/32" drill bit. The hole will be a little too rought on the inside so just us a small cured or round file and smooth it out so that you don't tear up the o-rings on the injectors.