200ci Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

This applies only to 200ci
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echo1955

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Hey Freddy I found the cam.. now all I need do is understand it…

Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
FORD 6 CYL 321256 256 Supercam .450 256° 112° 392-HY
 

echo1955

Well-known member
JackFish":3dve61hr said:
echo1955":3dve61hr said:
After reading all I could I have decided on the DUI ignition. Everything sounds good except the price.. :unsure:
DS2. (y) :nod:

Thank you JackFish.. (y) I can save $100 and keep original look..
These new electronic ignition systems are just too new to me.. :unsure:

I should be able to select the cam when the shop finishes the block in a couple weeks..
I think I will go with a slight lope and premium fuel.
 

rocklord

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echo1955":qzwfsbtl said:
When I finish my Mustang my granddaughter has a 64 Falcon w/170ci in it.
She hasn’t said anything yet but…. proly be me next adventure.. :mrgreen:

Be aware that the 64 170ci has four main bearings, not seven as found in your 65 200ci.

As for oil, you may want to look at Rotella. Dino oil that still has the ZDDP needed for our six.
 

MPGmustang

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echo1955":37n7194l said:
Hey Freddy I found the cam.. now all I need do is understand it…

Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
FORD 6 CYL 321256 256 Supercam .450 256° 112° 392-HY

256* @ .450 (.050 it's 112*)

IIRC it's lift is at 256 degrees, and lifts .450 max with stock rocker ratio (1.5) the 112 is the lobe separation, closer together the more it's ment for low end torque, 108*-112* are your options

IMHO for your build stick to torque, shoot for a nice 262/264 duration cam with 108 lobe centers, and advance it 6* (4* for the initial advance @ .050 and 2* more to lower the torque curve operating range) this should give peak torque around 1000-5000 nice for stop and go.
BUT if retaining the C4 auto, stick with the 112 lobe, it will give a better idle. and probably stick to the normal 4* (or .050) timing advance on the cam

The DUI price is more convenient as you know you can't miss anything or forget anything. but the price of 100 bucks can go somewhere else if needed. either way, it's a chunk of change, and the DUI more than pay's for itself IMO on setup time.

GL and Have Fun!!
Richard
 

rbohm

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echo1955":1ox3xmkv said:
What does this mean?
Balanced rot/recip assembly

this means that the crankshaft, rods, and pistons were properly balanced. what happens is the pistons are weighed, and then weight is taken off the heaviest pistons until they match the weight of the lightest piston, with in a gram or two.

then the connecting rods are also weighed, first a total weight, then each end is weighed, and again the heaviest rods are machined until they match the lightest rod, again within a gram or two. and this means both in total weight and each end.

then the rod, piston, ring pack, and rod bearings for one cylinder are weighed, and a weight equal to that amount is attached to the crankshaft at each rod journal, and the crank is spun to find where the balance is off. then weight is either added or subtracted as needed from the counterweights. rather like balancing a tire on a dynamic balancer.

After reading all I could I have decided on the DUI ignition. Everything sounds good except the price.. :unsure:

the DUI ignition is a good choice, though as noted somewhat pricey. the nice thing about using the DUI ignition is that everything is contained in the distributor, and you only need one wire to power the system. that way you can clean up some of the wiring in the engine compartment, and minimize troubleshooting efforts if you have an ignition issue.

Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
FORD 6 CYL 321256 256 Supercam .450 256° 112° 392-HY

the .450 is the net valve lift with the stock rocker arms
the 256 is the advertised duration, usually measured at 0-.006" lift depending on the manufacturer.
the 112 degrees is the lobe separation angle. the wider the angle the more dynamic compression you have, the better your low end torque. be careful when using this to help tune an engine combination, because if your static compression ratio is too high, you can very easily run into low speed detonation issues due to too high a dynamic compression ratio. for this lobe separation angle i would keep my static compression ratio around 9.5:1 for best results.
 

echo1955

Well-known member
rocklord":3nthnjas said:
echo1955":3nthnjas said:
When I finish my Mustang my granddaughter has a 64 Falcon w/170ci in it.
She hasn’t said anything yet but…. proly be me next adventure.. :mrgreen:

Be aware that the 64 170ci has four main bearings, not seven as found in your 65 200ci.

As for oil, you may want to look at Rotella. Dino oil that still has the ZDDP needed for our six.

This is the Falcon:
falcon.jpg
falconengine.jpg


The body inside and out is in christened condition. The engine and bay area needs some tender loving care.

If I get to this one it will be brought up to stock. Nothing intriguing or voodooing.. :beer:

Thank you rocklord I will add Rotella to the choices…
 

echo1955

Well-known member
MPGmustang":14ac6ej2 said:
echo1955":14ac6ej2 said:
Hey Freddy I found the cam.. now all I need do is understand it…

Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
FORD 6 CYL 321256 256 Supercam .450 256° 112° 392-HY

256* @ .450 (.050 it's 112*)

IIRC it's lift is at 256 degrees, and lifts .450 max with stock rocker ratio (1.5) the 112 is the lobe separation, closer together the more it's ment for low end torque, 108*-112* are your options

IMHO for your build stick to torque, shoot for a nice 262/264 duration cam with 108 lobe centers, and advance it 6* (4* for the initial advance @ .050 and 2* more to lower the torque curve operating range) this should give peak torque around 1000-5000 nice for stop and go.
BUT if retaining the C4 auto, stick with the 112 lobe, it will give a better idle. and probably stick to the normal 4* (or .050) timing advance on the cam

The DUI price is more convenient as you know you can't miss anything or forget anything. but the price of 100 bucks can go somewhere else if needed. either way, it's a chunk of change, and the DUI more than pay's for itself IMO on setup time.

GL and Have Fun!!
Richard


Thanks MPGmustang. This is the critical help I need. I have a general understanding of the cam. What I do not know is how far I can go with my stock rear-end and C4 trans.

You have given me a pretty good idea.. This next question may be premature but I’m only trying to see if my thinking is anywhere near reasonable.

IF:
I keep my stock rear-end
I keep my stock C4 trans
My bore is 30 over (3.68+.30=3.98 ??)
My stroke is 3.126” ??
AL heads machined to requirements
Yella Terra Full Roller Rocker ***
Dual Out Header

Can I use a 262/264 duration with a 110* lobe centers and not destroy the trans or rear end using commonsense driving practice.
I would prefer a slight lope idle.. :cool:

If the torque converter is too small, is there one I can use that is better and will fit what I have?

***Besides the roller features, I really appreciate the oiling mechanism. :nod:
 

echo1955

Well-known member
rbohm
this means that the crankshaft, rods, and pistons were properly balanced. what happens is the pistons are weighed, and then weight is taken off the heaviest pistons until they match the weight of the lightest piston, with in a gram or two.

then the connecting rods are also weighed, first a total weight, then each end is weighed, and again the heaviest rods are machined until they match the lightest rod, again within a gram or two. and this means both in total weight and each end.

then the rod, piston, ring pack, and rod bearings for one cylinder are weighed, and a weight equal to that amount is attached to the crankshaft at each rod journal, and the crank is spun to find where the balance is off. then weight is either added or subtracted as needed from the counterweights. rather like balancing a tire on a dynamic balancer.

The thought never occurred to me to have this work done.
I understand how important anything that spins in a 360* circle be balanced.
I will have mine balanced as well. Thank you rbohm..

The DUI is still an option for me..

rbohm
1: the .450 is the net valve lift with the stock rocker arms
2: the 256 is the advertised duration, usually measured at 0-.006" lift depending on the manufacturer.
3: the 112 degrees is the lobe separation angle. the wider the angle the more dynamic compression you have, the better your low end torque. be careful when using this to help tune an engine combination, because if your static compression ratio is too high, you can very easily run into low speed detonation issues due to too high a dynamic compression ratio.
4: for this lobe separation angle i would keep my static compression ratio around 9.5:1 for best results.

I have a good handle on number 1-2 and 3.

#4 is my next hurdle.
If I can use a 110* lobe separation how can I determine static compression.
 

JackFish

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I'm not sure if you mentioned what transmission you have, but a 112LC is recommended for an automatic.

I don't think balancing a reciprocating assembly is worth the expense unless you're building a race, or heavy-duty work engine.
 

bubba22349

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how can I determine static compression

Static compression is the total volume of the cylinder (bore dia, by the stroke length) compressed into the Head chamber volume (or CC’s), plus head gasket volume (at its compressed thickness), the pistons deck height i.e. (zero deck has no effect) if its below deck then its added to chamber vol. if its out the top its minus, and also add if the piston has a dish volume.
 

echo1955

Well-known member
JackFish":3qld8cdc said:
I'm not sure if you mentioned what transmission you have, but a 112LC is recommended for an automatic.

I don't think balancing a reciprocating assembly is worth the expense unless you're building a race, or heavy-duty work engine.

I’m not building a race engine or any sort of competition driving or heavy duty stuff.
I believe I understand why this may not be considered for street driving.
I don’t recall ever having it dun on our boat engines?? But my memory is faded at best..

If the cost is not too expensive I think I like the idea of having everything balanced.
My transmission is a C4 Automatic….

I see where the 112* LC is recommended for a stock rebuild.
I just want a little more punch.. If that is possible..
 

CZLN6

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Howdy Echo and All:

"My bore is 30 over (3.68+.30=3.98 ??)"

The "30" in this case refers to a .030" overbore. So your new bore size will be 3.71".

While balancing a street engine may not be necessary, I would always go the expense. It makes for a smoother, longer lasting engine and increases my peace of mind.

I love the Falcon. It could be the ultimate sleeper bird. I love the stealthy, sleeper ride.

I sure have been enjoying your journey. Thanks for sharing.

Adios, David
 

echo1955

Well-known member
bubba22349":34tb9u1d said:
how can I determine static compression

1: Static compression is the total volume of the cylinder (bore dia, by the stroke length) compressed into the Head chamber volume (or CC’s),
2: plus head gasket volume (at its compressed thickness), the pistons deck height i.e. (zero deck has no effect)
3: if its below deck then its added to chamber vol. if its out the top its minus, and also add if the piston has a dish volume.

To me this is all greek: But let me try.

1: Bore Dia: x Stroke: (3.98x3.12=12.417)
2: ??
3: ??

I believe I understand 2 & 3 just don’t know how you get there..
Will the machine shop give me this information?

Keep in mind I dropped out of the 11th grade in 55... :unsure:
 

echo1955

Well-known member
CZLN6":2y93mso5 said:
Howdy Echo and All:

"My bore is 30 over (3.68+.30=3.98 ??)"

The "30" in this case refers to a .030" overbore. So your new bore size will be 3.71".

While balancing a street engine may not be necessary, I would always go the expense. It makes for a smoother, longer lasting engine and increases my peace of mind.

I love the Falcon. It could be the ultimate sleeper bird. I love the stealthy, sleeper ride.

I sure have been enjoying your journey. Thanks for sharing.

Adios, David

Thanks David.. dem darn decimal can hang you out ta dry...
I did get it: 3.68x .030= 3.71
I hate ta say this but....math was one of my favorite subjects... :unsure:

ps: me too
 

JackFish

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I'll be honest, I've never priced balancing an engine, except to see that V8s start at about $250 or so.
At that price, if you can afford it, it's certainly worth it, and if you can do some of it yourself, even better.
But engines never come balanced from the factory and they do last a long time under normal driving conditions and regular maintenance.
 

MPGmustang

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I love good reads...

ClassicInlines":2diuu3fp said:
Simply put, the lobe center of a cam controls where the power curve is applied. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the rpm range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the rpm range. The rpm range is also known as, or refer to as the power band. In general, two degrees of lobe center is equal to approximately 500rpm. Therefore, if a cam with a 110* lobe center has a power range between 2500-6000 RPM, the same cam with a 112* lobe center would have a power range of 3000-6500 RPM. Conversely the same cam with a 108* lobe center would have a power range of 2000-5500 RPM.
http://classicinlines.com/SelectCam.asp

The question is ,
What RPM do you want the most/peak power (HP/Tq) at?
low 1000-2500
mid 1500-3000
high 2000-4000
With the CI alum head I woudn't worry about higher rpm's (2500-5500) as you'll get that naturally, but as your staying stock tranny, rear, and probably tires. your cruise rpm is at ~2500 to 2800 rpm @ 65mph so I would look for a mid range say 1000-4500rpm for decent acceleration and great power at driving speeds,

The more Max Hp/Tq you don't use at rpm, the more mpg u gain.
 

echo1955

Well-known member
JackFish":i4fyqghh said:
I'll be honest, I've never priced balancing an engine, except to see that V8s start at about $250 or so.
At that price, if you can afford it, it's certainly worth it, and if you can do some of it yourself, even better.
But engines never come balanced from the factory and they do last a long time under normal driving conditions and regular maintenance.

I understand what you are saying JackFish. My self knowing now the crank and pistons will not be balanced,
I will spend the $$ to have it dune… even though I won’t be able to see, hear or feel it..
my mind and mental psyche will know. :mrgreen:
 

echo1955

Well-known member
MPGmustang":3imamiw4 said:
I love good reads...

ClassicInlines":3imamiw4 said:
Simply put, the lobe center of a cam controls where the power curve is applied. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the rpm range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the rpm range. The rpm range is also known as, or refer to as the power band. In general, two degrees of lobe center is equal to approximately 500rpm. Therefore, if a cam with a 110* lobe center has a power range between 2500-6000 RPM, the same cam with a 112* lobe center would have a power range of 3000-6500 RPM. Conversely the same cam with a 108* lobe center would have a power range of 2000-5500 RPM.

http://classicinlines.com/SelectCam.asp

I hate to confess this but I have read all of those teck articles several tines over.
The only 2 places where I stumble are with determining the compression even though the formula is clearly visible. I will just have to wait until I get my block back on that..
And
Cam selection with me wanting to keep my current rear-end and trans…
If I was going to change the RE and Trans I would have no problem with cam selection…


The question is ,
What RPM do you want the most/peak power (HP/Tq) at?
low 1000-2500
mid 1500-3000
high 2000-4000
With the CI alum head I woudn't worry about higher rpm's (2500-5500) as you'll get that naturally, but as your staying stock tranny, rear, and probably tires. your cruise rpm is at ~2500 to 2800 rpm @ 65mph so I would look for a mid range say 1000-4500rpm for decent acceleration and great power at driving

I want a mild idle lope.
I like the mid range for most/peak power
I was looking at this
Class II (215° - 230°)
Fair idle quality. Good low to mid range torque and horsepower. Will work with stock or modified engine. For use with manual or automatic transmission with mild stall converter. Lower vacuum than stock.
And these 2 cams.
264D-110: 264/274 - 214/224 - .450/.450 - 110* - 1600-5200
Or
264S-110: 264/264 - 214/214 - .450/.450 - 110* - 1400-5000

I will let my grandson deal with the trans, rear-end disk breaks should he take the interest when his time comes..
He’s only 8 now..
 
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