She's still smoking / burning oil

[strat1960s]

Well, I know I said the other week that the motor oil was right on the mark, when I checked it saturday it was about 1 quart low. So I did a compression test and here are my numbers:
1 2 3 4 5 6
Dry: 150/ 145/ 150/ 150/ 150/ 150
Wet: 160/ 160/ 160/ 165/ 170/ 160

So, having said that, I looked in the manual that came with the compression tester and it said a significant increase in PSI on the wet test indicates ring problems. Would 5 to 10 PSI count as significant? The numbers on the wet test seem to be pretty close to where they should be. Where else could the oil be getting into the cylinders? I changed my oil for the first time since the vavle job. The oil really smelled like exhaust, but then again this is the oil that was in there while I had the valve(s) leaking oil.
What about the gasket? Could the gasket be leaking between the #4 and #5 cylinders, allowing oil to get into the cylinder and causing a slight increase in PSI as the next cylinders are compressing?
Please let me know if you all can come up with any suggestions.
Ted
By the way, I am still having trouble with my Ignitor II. They sent be two different styles and neither of them worked. I followed the direction and all that. So far the points are working for me. Once I get this oil thing figured out, I'd be willing to look at the DS II.

 

[addo]

You've got more than 10% variance wet to dry on a few pots. That's an indication of bore issues. I can't really say whether it's unseated or inverted rings, bore concentricity or wear, maybe even piston fit (very unlikely). The head gasket would allow far greater pressure drop between bores, if leaky.

 

[strat1960s]

Aww Man,

I hope that's not the case. This is getting old! I am pretty certain that leaky rings is going to be the straw that breaks the camels back. LOL
What kills me is that I drove the car for about 3 months with no problems. Then, after I got the car back from the body shop, I started having problems. HMMMMM, I wander is there is something to that......
Well, I am going to shoot these numbers past the machine shop that built my motor for me and see what they can do for me.

Thanks.
Ted

 

[addo]

You had the head off recently, didn't you? Did you have a close look at the bores then?

 

[strat1960s]

Yes, I had the head off and everything looked to be in good shape. I could still see the cross-hatches from the honing. I couldn't see anything that looked terribly out of place, no scratches or gouges.
These are the numbers I got before I had the head work done. Everyone said they thought it was valve related, including the manual for the compression tester.
(pre-valve job)
dry: 160 160 160 145 160 160
wet: 200 200 200 185 200 200

(post-valve job)
Dry: 150/ 145/ 150/ 150/ 150/ 150
Wet: 160/ 160/ 160/ 165/ 170/ 160

I am not sure why there is such a big difference between the two readings. Theres about a 10 PSI difference in the dry readings and 40 PSI difference in the wet readings.
I spoke to a couple of guys at my shop and they said it was possible that the smoke could be a tuning issue and I was thinking that as well, but that was before I checked the oil level on Sat.
You wanna know something odd? When I did the compression test and I had the plugs out of the car, my plugs looked to be in good shape. I didn't have any oil build up on the tips or signs of oil fouling. I wander how much a ring job will run me? I am going to call my machine shop later today, as well as a couple of other shops. Unfortunately, my machine shop doesn't work on cars in their shop, I would have to pull the motor and take it to them then put it all back in. Right now, I don't have time for that. I may need to look for another shop that can work on it while in the car. I'll check into it and keep everyone posted. Please if anyone has any suggestions, let me know.
Thanks for all of your help.
Ted

 

[trashline]

well it looks pretty obvious that the valve work you had done cured alot of your problems which is good. i do belive if the pressure goes up on a wet test that is a good sign of rings. im not enginer rebuilder either so take this as you wish. im not sure what goes into re ringing but i think you have to drop the pain to unbolt the connecting rods. so the motor has to be lifted if it is still in the car. save yourself some money and pull it yourself if you have the resources . theres no rush unless it is your daily driver. and if that is the case have them rebearing the crank to if they arnt new bearings to begin with good luck with whatever you do

 

[strat1960s]

I spoke with the machine shop that built my motor for me. They said it was possibly rings (unseated or damaged) or it could be the cylinder walls got glazed. Either way, they told me that it most likely would not correct itself over time. I wasn't holding my breath on the self fix. I spoke to another shop and they also said it is most likely rings. (Double nuts) The owner of the machine shop told me that if the car was driving fine to go ahead and drive it for a while, but to keep an eye one the oil level. That's what is so wild about this, the car is driving very nicely, it just smokes more than I would like.
I spoke to the boss about it, to let her know that we could be looking at a bit of a bill. She said; "well you're going to have to fix it anyways, so just do what needs to be done." My wife rocks!
I'll keep you all posted.
Ted

 

[Lazy JW]

This suggestion hasn't been very widely accepted on this forum but what your engine needs is the ol' BonAmi treatment. Warm the engine up, pull the air cleaner, set the idle up to about 1500 rpm, and slowly dribble two or three teaspoons full of BonAmi cleaning powder through the carb. Then take it out and drive it as hard as you can for a while, change the oil and drive it normal. Sometimes it takes a second treatment. This won't 'score' the cylinders. Yours is a perfect case for this to help.
Joe

 

[addo]

The Caterpillar option!

I read back all the posts on this motor and noticed it ran hot during the break-in. Is it possible that the extra heat combined with maybe a marginally rougher surface or softer ring faces, meant the rings were worn before the bore matched them?

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[66Sprinter]

Addo I was going along the same line...ring to bore steel hardness. I think thats why he was told to drive it until it seats. I think a retest on hot vs cold engine temp might be in order to see any compression changes. (Before after expansion!) Are we talking all, most or a few of the cylinders?

The unknown Q here is whether its the rings or the bores. He said the hone marks look generally fine so if thats the case in all cylinders then the rings are probably it. Rings are always first suspect anways. If it is rings then I am not sure the bon-Ami cure would work. Especially if one or more are put in upside down. Did you ask the rebuilder about the fact that maybe the rings weren't installed properly. I know shops are really touchy about this type of questioning. Thats why its good to investigate a shop and develop a solid relationship before commiting to any work.

Anyone else?

 

[strat1960s]

This is something that my machinist and I were pondering. When I first got the motor back from the machine shop, I had to try to time the motor and tune the carb at the same time. The break-in period was very rough and I am sure I was running very rich. The machinist was wandering if the cylinder walls may have become glazed from the excessive fuel and heat during the initial break-in period.
My only thoughts on that though are this:
* Once the motor was broke-in it did not smoke or burn oil at all.
* After driving the car for almost a year it began to burn oil through the valves.
* Once the head work was done, it smokes even more than before.

Note: head work included: new seats, new guides, new vitron seals, new exhaust valves. The only other changes made to the motor when the head was re-installed was a higher temp thermostat and I got rid of the Ignitor II and re-installed the points, gapped them at or around .025.

See, I have been thinking about all the possible variables / things that I did different when I got the head back on the block. Again, the smoking got worse after I got the head back, not better. Another shop I have dealt with said it was possible the machine shop forgot something or maybe did not put it together right.
I really do appreciate your help with this and I am willing to do whatever you guys suggest. Please keep the thoughts flowing.
Thank you.
Ted

 

[66Sprinter]

Strat...sometimes its best to get out of the forest so you can see the trees..and vetting your thoughts in the forum is a good way to do that.

If you know the before/after head issue made the problem worse... than pursue this as far as possible. Your reasoning is sound and the more you sketch it out the more the problem will become clear. Going on the head change theory...look at those items (head related) that can cause smoke. List them and check them. Valves, guides, oil relief, gasket, rods, rocker adjustment, milled straight, etc....

 

[addo]

I am willing to do whatever you guys suggest.

We might give you a break on that one!

Well, maybe the rings are plain worn out. That would explain the good spell, followed by the return issue as the valve sealing improved. Also, when the motor sat at the bodyshop, there is a remote chance that the bore walls were corroded where the rings pressed against them. Overfuelling can cause bore washing. When a motor's being broken in this is just when you don't want it. It's one reason I strongly advocate using a smaller or guaranteed dialled in carb on a break-in.

If the powder doesn't cut it after a couple of tries, then I cannot see an alternative to dismantling the block.

 

[strat1960s]

so you guys do recommend the BonAmi powder? What does this stuff do inside the motor?

 

[Lazy JW]

BonAmi powder is a very fine abrasive cleaning powder normally used for scouring kitchen sinks, etc. They brag that it won't scratch, presumably because it is so finely granulated. Caterpillar used to recommend it as a break-in aid for their engines and even sold it under their own part number. What it does is to help polish (wear in very slightly) the moving parts. What it will NOT do is to correct a worn-out situation such as seriously worn or broken rings, scored cylinders, cracked pistons, etc. It isn't magic, it will only help IF the problem is due to poor ring seal as a result of inadequate break-in. This may not help your engine but It also will NOT hurt it. I have used it successfully to help break-in ring jobs when I didn't rebore. If your problem is head related, this obviously isn't going to help either.
Joe

 

[PLP6400]

I wrote last week how my rebuilt engine started smoking after driving it for 200 miles with no smoke and then started smoking so bad you couldn't drive it. The only spark plug that had oil on it was number 5 and all cylinders had the same compresion +/- 2 psi. I was fed up with the engine and started to rebuild a 289 V-8 to put in. After reading this post. I ran 4 table spoons of Bon AMI throught the carb and then drove it hard taking it up to 5,500 RPM's (there is no power after 5000). The smoke is about 90 percent gone now. So it probably is a ring not seated yet. Thanks Lazy JW

 

[Anonymous]

patience silly rabbit...

j/k ofcourse

 

[strat1960s]

I have spoken to a few different shops since Monday and several have asked me some of the same questions. "Does the car smoke worse now than beofre the head work was performed? Is it possible that the guy that worked on your head messed it up?"
I can honestly answer yes to the first question. The second is what I am going to have to toil over. I will take the car to one of the shops I have taken it to in the past to get another opinion.
I'll keep you posted.

Ted

 

[addo]

I really doubt the head job affected the bores. It's just the result of closing off an area which sealed poorly before (the valves/seats) thus stressing the bore seal conditions further.

Testing your crankcase pressure used to be an indication of engine health. Not sure where you might find the gauge/kit these days.

 

[Lazy JW]

I wrote last week how my rebuilt engine started smoking after driving it for 200 miles with no smoke and then started smoking so bad you couldn't drive it. The only spark plug that had oil on it was number 5 and all cylinders had the same compresion +/- 2 psi. I was fed up with the engine and started to rebuild a 289 V-8 to put in. After reading this post. I ran 4 table spoons of Bon AMI throught the carb and then drove it hard taking it up to 5,500 RPM's (there is no power after 5000). The smoke is about 90 percent gone now. So it probably is a ring not seated yet. Thanks Lazy JW

You are most welcome I didn't invent this by any means, but I do believe it has its place even in these 'modern' times.
Joe