small six knock sensor?
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I have no experience with knock sensor placement on a 200 but I do know that on V8s I have done dyno work on that knock sensor placement is critical for identifying detonation. The wrong location will not produce a proper "knock signature" - the difference between the noise profile with and without incipient detonation - and it will be ineffective. I would try to find another engine with similar architecture to the 200 (Audi / BMW???) that uses a knock sensor and try a similar location. Good luck.
On the 300 the stock knock sensor location is just forward of the distributor, which I found a bit strange, as I would expect it to pick up a lot of camshaft noise there. I think the small block Chev location is on either side of the block. The 5.8 Ford is in the intake manifold. Like FTF said, location is supposed to be critical, but I'm not sure how much.
For my 300 I put my KnockSense MS on the left side of the block aft, on a convenient threaded boss that could have been for an engine mount or something.
For my 300 I put my KnockSense MS on the left side of the block aft, on a convenient threaded boss that could have been for an engine mount or something.
I was researching knock a little bit for our sixes; some of the Aussie engines had sensors. Once I get the engine back together I was going to pick up a couple of knock sensors, intentionally induce knock, and use a recording oscilloscope setup to look for the noise profile. But I was going to start by a) mounting it near where the Aussie sensor was, and b) seeing if the Aussie sensor has a US equivalent.
After that I was going to try using a microphone element to see if there were frequencies that might be picked up better in different locations or by different sensors.
At this point...even if I go with the six...I don't see myself tuning anything for a year or two.
After that I was going to try using a microphone element to see if there were frequencies that might be picked up better in different locations or by different sensors.
At this point...even if I go with the six...I don't see myself tuning anything for a year or two.
Knock (ping) sensing seems to be a bit of a "black art". Lots of theories, but not a lot of real world information for the back yard mechanics, like me.
Here's how I view it, for what it's worth.
Unless you are working with a very high performance engine, which I am not, if I can't physically hear a ping, it isn't a ping. A knock sensor itself is just a piezo electric cell that can produce a voltage at a given audible frequency (I think). The cell is just one part of it. It also requires some electronics to filter out the "non ping" noises and output some kind of signal that can be used as a visual, audible, or any kind of signal that can be data logged. Most, if not all will require some kind of field tuning and/or calibration. This leaves a lot of room for error but, almost any information is better than no information.
KnockSense MS outputs to an LED and also a signal to MS so you can data log it. I can induce a ping by manually advancing timing or leaning mixture, so I was able to calibrate it so that an audible ping would also produce an output. Not always, but most of the time. Probably close enough to tell me that not good things were happening.
No doubt there are better and more scientific ways of determining a real ping from just benign engine noises, but they are beyond my capabilities. I go back to the fact that there were a lot of engines, a lot higher strung than mine, tuned very well by ear in the past, so perhaps I'm not too far off base here.
It sure would be nice if there were a universal "Plug and Play" knock sensor that would produce accurate results in all applications, but I don't think that we are there yet.
Here's how I view it, for what it's worth.
Unless you are working with a very high performance engine, which I am not, if I can't physically hear a ping, it isn't a ping. A knock sensor itself is just a piezo electric cell that can produce a voltage at a given audible frequency (I think). The cell is just one part of it. It also requires some electronics to filter out the "non ping" noises and output some kind of signal that can be used as a visual, audible, or any kind of signal that can be data logged. Most, if not all will require some kind of field tuning and/or calibration. This leaves a lot of room for error but, almost any information is better than no information.
KnockSense MS outputs to an LED and also a signal to MS so you can data log it. I can induce a ping by manually advancing timing or leaning mixture, so I was able to calibrate it so that an audible ping would also produce an output. Not always, but most of the time. Probably close enough to tell me that not good things were happening.
No doubt there are better and more scientific ways of determining a real ping from just benign engine noises, but they are beyond my capabilities. I go back to the fact that there were a lot of engines, a lot higher strung than mine, tuned very well by ear in the past, so perhaps I'm not too far off base here.
It sure would be nice if there were a universal "Plug and Play" knock sensor that would produce accurate results in all applications, but I don't think that we are there yet.
This knock sensor business started when bought an 89 saab turbo for a winter car last month. As I began to research more I became quite interested in the APC system and how it controls boost by limited boost pressure when knock is heard. This got me thinking that if I found a knock sensor and location that could give me accurate readings, then maybe a similar system could be adapted to our six. I'm curious what year knock sensors first appeared on the Aussie motor as this might be a good place to start. The engine harmonics should be quite similar. Greywolf do you have any part numbers for the Aussie sensor?
Unlike America, where it was first used on the LTD 351 in 1981, the 1994 EF model Falcon was the first year, although it was reputed that the first unleaded fuel Falcon EFI engine in 1986 used a pre-drilled cylinder head bolt for one.
Use stock standard domestic stuff like GM, and save all hassles. Aussie stuff is designed to suit Aussie sixes. I'm never certain if there is a common US variant, so its probably better to copy a US sensor, and tune it in via osilliscope under load on a chassis dyno.
See http://image.hotrod.com/f/9518050+w750+ ... sensor.jpg
Its just a basic GM knock sensor. Honda guys use it with success. On our Honda cast Alloy headed engines, Ford uses a special cylinder head bolt at number one, right hand side which allows it to be screwed in.
For 94 to 98 4.0 sohc Fords, they used a massive 9.7 ;1 compression ratio hike , up from a quite high 8.8 used in EFI engines since 1983. They were still regular gas engines, same compression ratio as the 4.0 SOHC Exploder. It hooks up to distributor/oil filter side of engine, right between No 3 and 4 cylinder.
On log and x-flows, that right where the camshaft would be. http://www.getprice.com.au/images/uploa ... s-021.jpg' ACA make a cheap replacement for 90 ping Australian, called #k1508
For 99 on AU's and then all the twin cammer stuff, it lookes like they went to a combined item which is near the crank angle sensor, and thats probably not what you need for a Log head engine. Code from ACA is #k1511.
Use stock standard domestic stuff like GM, and save all hassles. Aussie stuff is designed to suit Aussie sixes. I'm never certain if there is a common US variant, so its probably better to copy a US sensor, and tune it in via osilliscope under load on a chassis dyno.
See http://image.hotrod.com/f/9518050+w750+ ... sensor.jpg
Its just a basic GM knock sensor. Honda guys use it with success. On our Honda cast Alloy headed engines, Ford uses a special cylinder head bolt at number one, right hand side which allows it to be screwed in.
For 94 to 98 4.0 sohc Fords, they used a massive 9.7 ;1 compression ratio hike , up from a quite high 8.8 used in EFI engines since 1983. They were still regular gas engines, same compression ratio as the 4.0 SOHC Exploder. It hooks up to distributor/oil filter side of engine, right between No 3 and 4 cylinder.
On log and x-flows, that right where the camshaft would be. http://www.getprice.com.au/images/uploa ... s-021.jpg' ACA make a cheap replacement for 90 ping Australian, called #k1508
For 99 on AU's and then all the twin cammer stuff, it lookes like they went to a combined item which is near the crank angle sensor, and thats probably not what you need for a Log head engine. Code from ACA is #k1511.
The early block and head bolt knock sensors are listed by code and figure in this document
http://www.tomco-inc.com/Catalog/knock%20sensors.pdf
Page 222 shows the Fig 13 1/4"NPT thread sensor 29021. 29022, 29042
For most F150'S, Ford PN E7TZ12A699A or new number FOTZ12A699A
Standard Motor Products Part Number KS78
For Aussie X-flows from 1986 to the last XF Falcon Ute and Nissan Ute in early 1992, its E6RF 12A69BA, and is now a defuct part.Down here in Australasia, our big senosr company for Air Temperature Sensors,Coolant Temperature Sensors, Crank Angle Sensors ,Idle Air Control Motors, Knock Sensors, Map Sensors, Power Steering Switches and Throttle Position Switches is ACA Engine Management Solutions®
ACA Dont list it any more, but they do list the later EEC 5 sensors for most OHC 6's and US derived Mustang GT and Explorer GT40 V8'S. See page 50 (44 to 46 on the file, but listed 50)
http://www.mazdabg.com/ftp-uploads/MAZD ... alogue.pdf
The common E6RF 12A69BA sensor is the orange or black inserted item in one of XFlow_Fairlane's posts
Other photos from Fordmods
They look similar. The Australian item is two wire, and is just a tell tale for 0 to 150 Hz knock. When its present, it sends 3 volts to the 60 pin EEC IV computer, just like the early EEC3 5.8's
http://www.tomco-inc.com/Catalog/knock%20sensors.pdf
Page 222 shows the Fig 13 1/4"NPT thread sensor 29021. 29022, 29042
For most F150'S, Ford PN E7TZ12A699A or new number FOTZ12A699A
Standard Motor Products Part Number KS78
For Aussie X-flows from 1986 to the last XF Falcon Ute and Nissan Ute in early 1992, its E6RF 12A69BA, and is now a defuct part.Down here in Australasia, our big senosr company for Air Temperature Sensors,Coolant Temperature Sensors, Crank Angle Sensors ,Idle Air Control Motors, Knock Sensors, Map Sensors, Power Steering Switches and Throttle Position Switches is ACA Engine Management Solutions®
ACA Dont list it any more, but they do list the later EEC 5 sensors for most OHC 6's and US derived Mustang GT and Explorer GT40 V8'S. See page 50 (44 to 46 on the file, but listed 50)
http://www.mazdabg.com/ftp-uploads/MAZD ... alogue.pdf
The common E6RF 12A69BA sensor is the orange or black inserted item in one of XFlow_Fairlane's posts
Other photos from Fordmods
They look similar. The Australian item is two wire, and is just a tell tale for 0 to 150 Hz knock. When its present, it sends 3 volts to the 60 pin EEC IV computer, just like the early EEC3 5.8's
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