Throttle Body EFI
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Its down in the megasquirt efi section. There is one by Moe$ with the tempo body. There are also a few that I think were going to use a 5.0 setup. I dont recall if the 5.0 guy ever got his going. I think Moe$ is been running his for a year or more now. The Tempo one is a 1bbl and limited to around 125 HP. If you already are set up for a 2bbl I would be looking at a GM setup. The GM TBI's were used on many cars and all the trucks and suvs from 87-95 so there are a ton of them out there and a ton of parts that can be had cheap. They put them on smaller engines but only in the early-mid 80's. I have not done the math but the 4.3 v6 was a very common one that should be easy to find and with something like a megasquirt could likely run a slightly better than stock 200. If that turns out to be too big then you are dealing with less common older stuff and you might have just as good of luck with the ford parts. Holley built/ builds kits and upgrades that may also be an option. Ebay is a good place to look for stuff like that. Megasquirt manual has lots of info for things like figuring out how big injectors need to be. If you know what sort of HP your engine is going to make and what fuel you plan to run you can then know how many LB per hour fuel you need so you can then figure out how many and what size the injectors you will need. You dont really need to worry about the CFM of the throttle body because for the most part if the injectors will flow enough fuel you will get enough air. Its not like carbs where the CFM is critical.
8) since you are running the aluminum head, you have a few options;
1: you can get the 2bbl adapter and run the ford cfi throttle body found on many fords of the early to mid 80's
2: you can get a holley 4bbl throttle body injector and run it with the megasquirt
3: you can get the barry grant VFI system and run it with a few different controllers.
the barry grant system uses fuel injectors that push fuel through a carburetor body using the carburetor venturis for maximum atomization.
1: you can get the 2bbl adapter and run the ford cfi throttle body found on many fords of the early to mid 80's
2: you can get a holley 4bbl throttle body injector and run it with the megasquirt
3: you can get the barry grant VFI system and run it with a few different controllers.
the barry grant system uses fuel injectors that push fuel through a carburetor body using the carburetor venturis for maximum atomization.
I cant imagine a 4bbl having any sort of drive ability on even even worked up 200. Large injectors have problems at idle. Thats why you need to have a realistic idea what kind of HP you are making so you can select injectors that are just large enough. The fewer number of injectors the larger the problem is getting the proper range. Proper idle is much harder to get right than full throttle. I think a 2bbl is the ticket especially if you already have an intake set for it. Im running a 2bbl on a 500 inch motor, I had a 4bbl because so many people said the 2bbl would not work but ended up selling it because it was just too big. I could have looked for smaller injectors but there just are not that many options and they are expensive. Since you have time just search around the net there are getting to be more and more options out there now. There are even some that look like vintage carbs but use regular bosch injectors hidden under fake bowls. Once you are past junkyard stuff I would be looking at something that uses bosch style since those are very common and come in a wide range of sizes and prices. They are multiport injectors but some of the aftermarket TBIs use them now. If you are looking for cheap easy to find see if the one for a GM 4.3 v6 will work. The mount is the same as the Holley TBI units so finding a plate to go to just about any carb intake is easy. If those are too big then the smaller Gm and Ford stuff is likely going to be about the same for cost and number of them in junkyards.
If you have not run your motor before you sure dont want to start it up and break it in on a home made EFI system. Start it up for the first time with a known good carb. Make sure the motor is broke in and running good before you do the swap. You want to know for sure that the motor is good so at least that will eliminate one option why its not working right when you do the EFI.
If you have not run your motor before you sure dont want to start it up and break it in on a home made EFI system. Start it up for the first time with a known good carb. Make sure the motor is broke in and running good before you do the swap. You want to know for sure that the motor is good so at least that will eliminate one option why its not working right when you do the EFI.
fordconvert":5ccx3xxu said:
My apologies but your comments on 4bbls do not make sense to me.
Back in the mid 70's a very popular "upgrade" for hopped up Pinto's and Mustang II's with the 2.3L motor was the Offenhauser dual port 4bbl intake and a Holley 390cfm 4bbl.
Mustang Geezer is running a 500cfm Holley 4bbl on his 200 Inline six but his is now optimized for strip duty so good street behavior is no longer of prime importance. I do not remember him mentioning any driveability problems even before that.
GM and Chrysler inline six owners have had the luxury of aluminum 4bbl intakes for years.
I cant imagine a problem running a 4bbl unless it was not sized to the engine properly or was not setup properly.
Example is a kid I went to school with who had a performance rebuild of a 351W and complained it ran like crap. He had a Torker intake (single plane) and a 850cfm Holley double pumper 4bbl.
I convinced him to switch to a Holle 600cfm 4bbl with vacuum secondaries and a Performer dual plane intake and he was very happy afterwards. We played with different colored secondary springs to get his vacuum secondaries to open up at the right time. I dont think we ever rejetted the carb.
I could be wrong but my experience leads me to believe that a properly setup and tuned 4bbl carb should give just as much power and throttle response over a larger rpm range as a comparable 2bbl.
I think he's refering to 4bbl TBI's, not carbs. TBI is a different beast when it comes to that. with a 4bbl TBI, getting injectors small enough to run at idle indeed may be difficult, but I can't imagine with a Holley TBI set up, you can't get small enough injectors without too much hassle.
If he is refering to carbs, I have to agree...nothing wrong with a 4V carb on a worked over 200. My mustang love's its 390cfm Holley. In fact, I think it can use a little more, but since I drive everyday, the economy of the 390 is nice to have.
Regards,
If he is refering to carbs, I have to agree...nothing wrong with a 4V carb on a worked over 200. My mustang love's its 390cfm Holley. In fact, I think it can use a little more, but since I drive everyday, the economy of the 390 is nice to have.
Regards,
Just a general response for those following along, Im not claiming to be an expert on any of this stuff or that other readers or participants in this thread /forum dont already know this stuff... just trying to fill in some basic details for those just starting out with this stuff.
Yes I was referring to TBI injection systems. EFI and Carbs are different animals. A carb needs the airflow to be somewhat restricted to draw the fuel. They also need to have things like power valves to try and get fuel in under low vacuum situations which is a problem because this is often when you are trying to make the most power. Obviously over the years and not having any other options people have figured out how to make it work fairly well. EFI does not have any of those issues. You can dump gallons of fuel into a non running engine if you wanted to. With TBI you still have the issue of keeping the fuel suspended in the air on the way through the manifold. Thats where multiport come in, you shoot the fuel at the back of the intake valve so there is no time for it to stick to the walls.
My guess is most of the 4bb carb setups on smalller displacement engines are progressive linkage and vacuum secondaries? Thats not a statement, just a guess based on stuff i have seen and worked on. Thats how GM did it with the Q-Jet. The Qjet was also a spread bore so with the fairly small primaries they were able to get the control that was needed to meet emissions. I know GM used them on 250's, maybe even the 230 and 231's so yes I am aware that a 4bbl carb can be used on a fairly small displacement engine.
I built my first EFI system a few years ago and learned a lot about engines and tuning along the way. The big thing I learned is you cant be thinking and listening to people that only know carbs. Thinking outside the box so to speak. There are things EFI can do (with a few keystrokes) that would take forever or not even be possible with a carb. Nothing wrong with carbs or carb people. The engine still needs the same air fuel ratios to run so the basic theories and concepts are still true so dont ignore information from people that are willing to share. No sense in 're inventing the wheel' . Its quite amazing once you see logs of how an efi system works how for typical situations things like vacuum and fuel stay linear. Thats why a carb can be very simple for a constant power/load motor. Where it gets complicated is something like a street car where there is a wide range of loads and conditions that have to be met. Thats where power valves, secondaries and things along those lines come in. Since EFI is just a bunch of look up tables you can program them to do what ever you want whenever you want or think you want. Its sort of a double edge sword though. Since you can easily adjust for anything you can often adjust for something that is not fuel related and end up making more trouble for yourself. With a carb making and adjustment is often more complicated so you tend to rule out other issues before you go through the trouble of tearing into the carb. One of the best features is being able to easily try something new. You can wonder what if there was a bit more fuel at this one tiny rpm, vacuum, and throttle position. If it does not work you just reset back to where you started. You dont have to tear the carb down to change jets, bleeds, and such.
Yes I was referring to TBI injection systems. EFI and Carbs are different animals. A carb needs the airflow to be somewhat restricted to draw the fuel. They also need to have things like power valves to try and get fuel in under low vacuum situations which is a problem because this is often when you are trying to make the most power. Obviously over the years and not having any other options people have figured out how to make it work fairly well. EFI does not have any of those issues. You can dump gallons of fuel into a non running engine if you wanted to. With TBI you still have the issue of keeping the fuel suspended in the air on the way through the manifold. Thats where multiport come in, you shoot the fuel at the back of the intake valve so there is no time for it to stick to the walls.
My guess is most of the 4bb carb setups on smalller displacement engines are progressive linkage and vacuum secondaries? Thats not a statement, just a guess based on stuff i have seen and worked on. Thats how GM did it with the Q-Jet. The Qjet was also a spread bore so with the fairly small primaries they were able to get the control that was needed to meet emissions. I know GM used them on 250's, maybe even the 230 and 231's so yes I am aware that a 4bbl carb can be used on a fairly small displacement engine.
I built my first EFI system a few years ago and learned a lot about engines and tuning along the way. The big thing I learned is you cant be thinking and listening to people that only know carbs. Thinking outside the box so to speak. There are things EFI can do (with a few keystrokes) that would take forever or not even be possible with a carb. Nothing wrong with carbs or carb people. The engine still needs the same air fuel ratios to run so the basic theories and concepts are still true so dont ignore information from people that are willing to share. No sense in 're inventing the wheel' . Its quite amazing once you see logs of how an efi system works how for typical situations things like vacuum and fuel stay linear. Thats why a carb can be very simple for a constant power/load motor. Where it gets complicated is something like a street car where there is a wide range of loads and conditions that have to be met. Thats where power valves, secondaries and things along those lines come in. Since EFI is just a bunch of look up tables you can program them to do what ever you want whenever you want or think you want. Its sort of a double edge sword though. Since you can easily adjust for anything you can often adjust for something that is not fuel related and end up making more trouble for yourself. With a carb making and adjustment is often more complicated so you tend to rule out other issues before you go through the trouble of tearing into the carb. One of the best features is being able to easily try something new. You can wonder what if there was a bit more fuel at this one tiny rpm, vacuum, and throttle position. If it does not work you just reset back to where you started. You dont have to tear the carb down to change jets, bleeds, and such.
Explorer
Well-known member
A couple years ago the thought of EFI was of no interest to me. I restore and work on old vehicles due to thats what I am comfortable working on. However this project will probably be my last and fullfilling a life long desire to build a six cyl. The aluminum head and seperate intake intriged me. I could have dropped in a small block V8 for a lot less money. Obviously this head/intake was designed keeping in mind the EFI option since the intake already has bosses built in. I have read posts with members carrying this idea ahead and with good results carrying technology ahead. Just in my limited reading I have noticed the Holley Pro-Jection, not having a good following, is now available from 300cfm up. A total stand alone self learning unit. I'm just not knowlegable enough about what all is involved, spark control etc.
The reason I ask these dumb questions is to learn from you guy's and while I will still make my own decisions, and mistakes, at least I will be able to make informed ones. The only thing keeping me going since retirement is learning. I'm not afraid to try new things and while I do not have unlimited financial resources, I'm not afraid to spend money either.
Thanks again guy's, Richard
The reason I ask these dumb questions is to learn from you guy's and while I will still make my own decisions, and mistakes, at least I will be able to make informed ones. The only thing keeping me going since retirement is learning. I'm not afraid to try new things and while I do not have unlimited financial resources, I'm not afraid to spend money either.
Thanks again guy's, Richard
I have not yet seen in person or talked to (even online) anyone that has ever had their hands on a 'self learning' system. All I see is advertisements from people that make and sell them. After doing a few systems I find it hard to believe. There are always going to be variables in your setup. Even simple things like different tire size and gear ratios can make a difference. If they know the basic engine setup they should be able to get you close but its still gonna take some tweaking. If there is such a system out there and its not horribly expensive I would be all over it. It sometimes gets old tuning rather than driving. In the end I still feel it was worth it and plan to do another project as soon as I get a few other things done. Likely another Megasquirt, not because I think they are the best or the cheapest but because I already know them and how they work. Finding an older analog Holley Projection is a fairly easy setup. Just 5 or 6 dials to turn. You just keep making slight adjustments till it runs right. I would not count on those to get good mileage but at least you get to test the throttle body and get your fuel supply worked out. You can then change to something better and sell off whats left to someone else that is just starting out.
No problem asking questions.
I'm working on a MPFI set up for my Aussie (for hopes for when I finally get a CI head). It has been interesting. From what I've been able to dig up, most of those 'self learning' system are nothing more that a system relying on a faster processor but just working to keep the fuel-air ratio at a desired amount. They may even be pre-programmed with certain other variables. For 95% of people, they wouldn't notice a difference between that and a system that has been programmed for a varying degree of loading conditions for a specific engine. Heck, I'm not sure I'd notice a difference, but I guess I'd know in the back of my mind that it wasn't perfect.
One of the best ways to 'pre-program' a system is install an O2 sensor, and set up MS to data log while running off a carb. Hook up all the sensors and just let it record (I'm pretty sure MS has that ability, maybe I'm thinking of another one...it's been awhile since I've read the MS manual). This will give you a decent fuel map to start with.
That's how I plan to start. I'll get MS to control the ignition first (most likely through mega-jolt) and just let it record the carb's readings on the engine.
Regards
I'm working on a MPFI set up for my Aussie (for hopes for when I finally get a CI head). It has been interesting. From what I've been able to dig up, most of those 'self learning' system are nothing more that a system relying on a faster processor but just working to keep the fuel-air ratio at a desired amount. They may even be pre-programmed with certain other variables. For 95% of people, they wouldn't notice a difference between that and a system that has been programmed for a varying degree of loading conditions for a specific engine. Heck, I'm not sure I'd notice a difference, but I guess I'd know in the back of my mind that it wasn't perfect.
One of the best ways to 'pre-program' a system is install an O2 sensor, and set up MS to data log while running off a carb. Hook up all the sensors and just let it record (I'm pretty sure MS has that ability, maybe I'm thinking of another one...it's been awhile since I've read the MS manual). This will give you a decent fuel map to start with.
That's how I plan to start. I'll get MS to control the ignition first (most likely through mega-jolt) and just let it record the carb's readings on the engine.
Regards
This is my experience, firsthand and my opinion, if you have the aluminum CI head it is so easy to drill the head for injectors and put a fuel rail in and then for simplicity just use the bigger gm TBI and convert it to a TB by removing the injectors, you now have a TPS and IAC, if you have the four barrel adapter from Mike for the AL head summit has the adapter to put the GM TBI on the AL intake, I'm sure you will have plenty of clearance as this TBI is very short, now comes the controversy, I now believe that RETROTEK SPEED can send you a program from the archives that we have worked on that will be hands off and run great, I'm proof of it with several different variables, NA and different boost, they will bend over backwards to get it right. 19 and 24 lb injectors will work very well with tendency toward the19's on a very mild cam and 30's will work very well with10lbs of boost and below, pm me if you have any questions,if you call retrotek, tell them MIke with the bronco 200 sent you,I was their first ford inline customer. I wish I had me to call when I started this because of all the trials and tribulations. I will walk any one through this that needs help.
Broncitis":lhkmmngp said:
I looked at their website and they have several EFI systems. What system did you use from them?
As with others on this site, I'm a cheap SOB and can't see paying more for a fuel system than for an engine rebuild, even though I'm an advocate for EFI. I know $2500 isn't a lot for a rebuild, so don't flame me.
I used their STAGE 2 EMS, I don't believe they advertise it any more because they are trying to launch their stage 3 ems, world products still has the stage 2 which has some relationship with Ken Ferrel who is the engineer and founder of retrotek, if you speek with Ken or Cody, they can hook you up with the stage 2, I understand, it took about 1700 bucks just for the electronics and all harnesses, you can save yourself alot of money with MS if you can do it and have the time, I had the money and not the time, all I am expressing is my own personal direct experience with retrotek if you have the money to go that route you will not be disappointed and they made me feel like I had my own personal tech staff,because I was probably the most ignorant person on EFI they had ever had to deal with.
Rocklord or anyone else who tries this formula will be ultra satisfied, with the cam custom ground for boost and low compression running NA, I could not believe how smooth and strong this little six ran, with multiport you can just get it to run incredibly smooth through all RPM ranges and just the balance of the fuel in a MPFI, has to make an engine last longer,I don't miss the transitioning of the last 2 barrels of a four barrel kicking in as much as I thought I would, Its a whole different feeling and once you get it set, your for the most part done.
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