To intercool or not on Supercharged 250 2V OZ engine

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In my searches for getting the most out of an inline 6, I have found that the general rule of "there's no replacement for displacement"(applies the same to all engines), the other rule "you can always make it better if it breathes better." So I have come to the point in which I will acquire a complete Oz 250 2V engine(thanks to AzCoupe and Does10s) in the near future, I am considering a centrifugal supercharger(due to the ease of installation and no computer involvment, :D like for turbos) such as a Paxton, to make her go quicker and faster.

So should I consider an intercooler if I run a boost of only maybe 6lbs.?

Christopher Harris
 
6 psi is fairly modest. I personally subscribe to the intercooled is better idea. If it were my system, I'd do it. I like to play it safe. However, I have no practical experience in the matter, so it's all hearsay and conjecture...

I'd say yes if you can find one cheap. It's not required, but a cooler intake charge is always a good thing. You can maybe get a little more aggressive with timing and tuning, and have lower risk of detonation. Don't break the bank on it.

--mikey
 
I'll bet you'll love what 6psi will feel like, as well as 8psi, and 12psi and maybe even 15psi. I say plan for an intercooler now.
 
Chris,
Good to see you made it home after SEMA! Intercooling is always a good idea. At 6lbs. it's probably not necessary. Although like Mikey said, you will have better control over detonation with one installed. And for a daily driver type car it'll be much better. There's a reason every OEM manufacture (that I know of anyway!) that has a turbo car, uses some sort of intercooling. Even when they are factory set at 6lbs.
And I agree with what DBzOkole said....better be prepared to crank up the boost because it's very addicting!
Later,
Will
 
Thanks for the input guys, I really appreciate it.

Hey Will, being the turboed up as you are, any ideas on where I might acquire an intercooler for a reasonable price?


Also Will, I know it's only been a week or so, but have you taken a look at the block yet? If not, no worries. You've got your own crap to deal with, just keep me updated when you get a spare moment.
Thanks again guys.
Christopher Harris
 
Chris, I still have the block and won't get a chance to take it over to the machine shop until next week when I'm back from my trip. Just thought I'd let you know.
 
Anything IC'd under 10 psi is actually warming the air not cooling it, with an air to air IC anyway. Not to mention the restriction in air flow. Corkey Bell refers to them as "InterHeaters", lol. The reason you are seeing them on low boost apps is because they are in demand; they are "cool". Like saying you've got "noss". Consumers who want a fancy blower surely also want all the pretty bells & whistles to go with it. Pure marketing. I prefer alc. injection myself on HIGHER boost apps. There are also other ways to bring down (Thermally Tune) the temps BEFORE an IC is necessary. I say go as far as you can before wasteing $$$ & wasteing boost & further restricting the airflow. .
 
Im not sure if your still hunting good intercoolers for cheap, but third gen RX7 intercoolers are supposed to be really good and you can get them $15-30 on ebay.
Matt
 
i read on a performance site not too long ago (dont ask me to find it again though, lol) and it said that running an intercooler on anything under 400HP is a waste...it might be a bit different with a turbo, but i dont think we make enough power on a mildly rebuilt turbocharged engine to require an intercooler, at least not to make that big of a difference...the $$ could probably be spent better somewhere else. what about a cooling can for the fuel? although 15-30 bucks is a good price for an intercooler....but then look at what Turbo-Rich is saing about anything under 10 psi is warming the air rather than cooling it and the alchohol injection, which is probably something i would end up doing.
 
I think you should intercool. MKIII supras have the intercoolers that go in and out of the same side. you can pick up a used one on ebay for about 40 bucks. An excellent choice for this application. Im in disagreement that you would actually be warming the air with an intercooler, and im sure that you will notice the biggest difference at high rpms on the highway..
 
Under 400 hp? Again as posted earlier, why do all turbo cars come with intercoolers? I'm tring to think of a car that comes stock turbo, and does not come with an intercooler in todays modern era(90's-00's) can't think of any.

We just recently added a FMIC to my buddies 87 Celica 3SGTE Hybrid and it made one hell of a difference. He runs 10 psi, roughly 260-280 ponies.
 
I didn't read every post but I'm just going to spit this out.

It doesn't matter what engine your running or how much horsepower your generating.

When you compress air it heats up. The high heat will ruin a turbo or supercharger over time.

The decision to run an intercooler is all about how much boost your running and how hot the air gets. An intercooler will extend the life of your turbo/supercharger and increase the power a little bit. Personally anything running over 8lbs of boost could probably benefit from an intercooler.

The more boost your run the more the air gets compressed and hotter the air is going to be.
 
How will the intercooler (really an aftercooler) affect the temp of the turbo or supercharger if it only works on the air after it has left the unit?
 
Hello all --

Hindle_Az has hit the basic truth: It isn't HP that matters on using an intercooler, it is boost. And more boost means higher intake temps, which means lower CFM, which means less HP benefit from the boost -- and much more likely detonation.

Here's an example using the equations of Bell and McInnes for a turbo. The physics of a supercharger is the same, so the trends below apply:

Assuming a compressor efficiency of 73%, ambient temp of 75 degrees, an intercooler at 75% efficiency and a 1 psi loss, at sea level, here is the comparison of outputs from a theoretical turbo engine --
Non-Intercooled Intercooled ----------------------------
Boost Intake T CFM In T pct CFM pct
------ ---------- ------- ------ ------ ------- ------
0 75.0 - 272.1 - 75.0 - 100% - 253.6 - 93%
1 88.8 - 283.3 - 78.4 - 88% - 270.4 - 95%
2 101.9 - 294.3 - 81.7 - 80% - 287.0 - 98%
3 114.5 - 305.1 - 84.9 - 74% - 303.5 - 99%
4 126.7 - 315.7 - 87.9 69% - 319.9 - 101%
5 138.3 - 326.1 - 90.8 - 66% - 336.2 - 103%
6 149.5 - 336.3 - 93.6 - 63% - 352.4 - 105%
7 160.4 - 346.4 - 96.3 - 60% - 368.5 - 106%
8 170.9 - 356.3 - 99.0 - 58% - 384.4 - 108%
9 181.1 - 366.1 - 101.5 - 56% - 400.3 - 109%
10 190.9 - 375.8 - 104.0 - 54% - 416.1 - 111%
11 200.5 - 385.3 - 106.4 - 53% - 431.9 - 112%
12 209.8 - 394.7 - 108.7 - 52% - 447.5 - 113%
13 218.9 - 404.0 - 111.0 - 51% - 463.1 - 115%
14 227.8 - 413.2 - 113.2 - 50% - 478.6 - 116%
15 236.4 - 422.3 - 115.3 - 49% - 494.0 - 117%

In case it doesn't line up (sorry, when I type this it looks fine, but when I preview it it jams up), column 1 is boost (range 0-15 pounds); column 2 is NON-IC intake temperature; column 3 is NON-IC air flow (DFM); column 4 is Intercooled intake temperature; column 5 is IC temp as a % of NON-IC temp; column 6 is Intercooled CFM; column 7 is Intercooled CFM as % of NON-IC CFM.

In the end, CFM is what matters -- we've all heard that engines are air pumps, and the more air you flow, the more HP you make. So, if you just look at the last column, you see that somewhere between 3 and 4 pounds of boost, you hit breakeven for CFM (IC CFM pct ~ 100%). Below that boost level, the pressure loss due to extra IC piping eats up more CFM than the IC can produce by increasing air density. By six pounds of boost, the IC set-up is colling things enouch to increase air density sufficiently, that it is pushing 5% more air than is the non-IC set-up, meaning something like an extra 5% in HP, too. Whether that bit of extra HP is worth the IC troubles, is a question of cost:benefit.

But look also at the Intake Temp comparisons. That gives you an idea how the IC helps with air density (cooler air is more dense), but it also gives you an idea on why people talk about IC's helping with detonation. At six pounds of boost the temp differences are already big -- the IC is running at 63% of the non-IC temp, or about 55 degrees cooler. At the theoretical 15 pounds of boost, the IC temp is HALF that of the non-IC temp, a diff of around 115 degrees. This is why Spearco (intercooler manufacturer) says an IC allows you to run the same octane level at 3-4 pounds higher boost without detonation.

Now not all IC's will operate exactly this way... A more efficient turbo, a less efficient intercooler, a hotter ambient temp, will give less of a difference. A better IC will give a bigger difference. Other variables include different elevations, changes in humidity, backpressure, etc., etc., etc.. But the general rule of thumb that at somewhere around six pounds of boost the IC will give noticeably better HP, and will have _less_ of a tendency to detonate.

Last thing: Different supercharger designs have very, very different efficiencies. I don't keep up with that side of forced induction, but 50% and 60% efficiencies are not uncommon with some of the older designs. That means IC's will be even _more_ useful for a supercharger. Maybe even at 4 pounds boost? I don't know.

Hope that helps.

--- Barrett
 
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