Turbo Exhaust manifold?

[powerband]

Turbo Exhaust manifold?

investigating exhaust manifolds, headers and roundbody engine compartments, my '61 already has battery in trunk,,, . I saw simple fabbed "flipped" headers used on turbo SBC with cutting and welding why not similar for six ? , I have a set of 200 type Headers to alter - looking for pictures or recommendations... (anecdotes not so much)

I have a set of dual out picked up on CL but simpler tubed- single out may be less problems...



thanks,,

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[First Fox]

Why not a simple "J" pipe? It REALLY simplifies things and is cheap and easy.

 

[Asa]

Why not a simple "J" pipe? It REALLY simplifies things and is cheap and easy.

Longer the exhaust path to the turbo, less efficient it is, that cuts out a J-pipe for the headers shown. Now you've got to go back to the stock manifold, which flows crappily.

A J-pipe will work for a temporary setup, or someone balling on a budget, but when designing a proper manifold you want to actually build it so it flows well

 

[First Fox]

Longer the exhaust path to the turbo, less efficient it is, that cuts out a J-pipe for the headers shown. Now you've got to go back to the stock manifold, which flows crappily.

A J-pipe will work for a temporary setup, or someone balling on a budget, but when designing a proper manifold you want to actually build it so it flows well

I'm not so sure of that logic, or how crappy a stock manifold flows. With an N/A engine, the scavenging effect of tuned headers is a good thing if you can deal with all the down sides of having them. But for a turbo, the exhaust gasses are funneled into a small area when entering the turbo anyway and a "J" pipe allows a relatively short overall length to the turbo itself. I have seen some very fast turbo cars running manifolds and "J" pipes.

No doubt a properly built header will make more power, but it always comes down to how much more power vs, the time and money spent. Perhaps if you are building a maximum power effort, or if you just want to show off some welding and fabrication skills, that is good way to do it, but I would argue that a "J" pipe is more than a temporary or rigged up way to plumb the turbo and is a very reasonable compromise of cost vs. performance.

Just my 2 hundredths of a dollar.

 

[powerband]

good discussion, brings up lots more questions

... I like simple, if J-Pipe demonstrates close performance to (questionably) better flowing headers, a late model 2" large casting OEM manifold and smooth bend J-Pipe fabbed to approximately battery location turbo is viable option,

... simplest fabrication uses header flange and pipe stubs for "log" type tube to turbo. Inverted single out snakey tube Header maybe if worth the effort ... . ... longer exh. path to turbo much less efficient? (compressibility?) ., negates equal tube header advantage ?...

more fun

 

[Asa]

I'm not so sure of that logic, or how crappy a stock manifold flows. With an N/A engine, the scavenging effect of tuned headers is a good thing if you can deal with all the down sides of having them. But for a turbo, the exhaust gasses are funneled into a small area when entering the turbo anyway and a "J" pipe allows a relatively short overall length to the turbo itself. I have seen some very fast turbo cars running manifolds and "J" pipes.

As exhaust gasses cool they have less velocity. Less velocity means less energy transference to the turbine wheel of the turbo. It is why the remote turbo systems (such as www.ststurbo.com ) caught such crap when they first came out. Yes, they do work, yes the exhaust gases do have to move the turbine wheel to exit the system, but they are not as efficient as a properly designed system.
The reasons why you want a tuned exhaust manifold in a NA system are the same reasons you want a tuned exhaust manifold in a forced induction setup.

You overcome some of the effects of the poorly flowing stock exhaust manifold by the very act of building a forced induction setup around it, but it is still a restriction.
Hell, I'll probably fab up a J-pipe for my truck and/or Mustang before I build a good manifold for it, but just because there are fast cars out there running stock manifolds and J-pipes does not mean that they are running at the peak of their available power.

 

[First Fox]

As exhaust gasses cool they have less velocity. Less velocity means less energy transference to the turbine wheel of the turbo. It is why the remote turbo systems (such as http://www.ststurbo.com ) caught such crap when they first came out.

I agree with you. But by building a turbo header it is not likely that you will shorten the length of the exhaust pulse to the turbine, you might even make it longer.

The reasons why you want a tuned exhaust manifold in a NA system are the same reasons you want a tuned exhaust manifold in a forced induction setup.

THIS I disagree with. The idea of tuning exhaust pulses is based on their reaching a point of low pressure by entering the collector at a specific time. This low pressure does not exist in a turbine housing as it is a restriction and is kind of just the opposite.

but just because there are fast cars out there running stock manifolds and J-pipes does not mean that they are running at the peak of their available power.

Right. That's why I said, in an all out race effort where the pockets are a bit deeper than they should be, that makes sense. But for the average guy trying to turbo one of our sixes, I think it is more academic than anything. I am speaking strictly as cost/benefit standpoint.

 

[StrangeRanger]

In a turbo manifold you want short, free flowing and minimal heat loss. Sometimes 2 out of 3 ain't bad. The optimum solution is a purpose built turbo header which connects the turbine inlet flange with 6 very short equal length tubes and is ceramic coated to retain heat. Expensive to build.

If there is a larger diameter stock cast-iron manifold for the 200 like there is for the 300, then that would be a good plan B. Clean up the interior as much as possible with a die grinder or if you're feeling flush have it Extrude-Honed. Once that's done, fab up the J-Pipe and have them both ceramic coated.

Fitting a turbo to a long tube header is basically using the wrong tool for the job.

 

[drag-200stang]

This is an Ak Miller turbo exhaust manifold. As you can see, its simply a T4 flange welded on shortened stock exhaust manifold. This is a fairly efficient set up. Not perfect for all out, but I feel it should be fine up to 300 hp range. I made 450 hp with this set up. Enough to push a 66 coupe drag car to 9 sec 1/4 mile times.

The issue with this set up is that it was made for a 250. As you can see in the picture, I'm using an adapted V8 bellhousing with a low starter position. On a 200, it puts the exhaust very close to the starter. A short mini starter and some creative bango style exhaust fitting may be doable. May have issues with turbo hitting shock tower. The issue with making a tube header is, its a lot of work (and getting the flange to seal if its not very thick). Stock cast iron is robust enough to carry the weight of the turbo with no problem and seal well. I wouldn't think a J-pipe relying on the doughnut to seal well on a daily driver would be reliable.

What I like about the stock manifold is that its pretty simple to get a flange for your turbo, saw manifold off, check for proper fit, bolt on junk head, throw in the oven, pull out and weld, surface flange if needed and you're done.

 

[bubba22349]

drag-200stang am having some trouble seeing the details on your engine picture with my old eyes. Do you have a bigger picture? I also agree that mounting it direct to manifold would be much better for retaining heat, so it should be a lot more efficient too.

 

[powerband]

Initially considered mounting a Turbo easily accessible towards OEM batty location , within discussion, simple yet most efficient location seems: closest to an OEM manifold outlet as possible. (I am working with a 250 block with lowmount bell.)



my old eyes g'gld up a pic of a mod's exh manifold similar to discussion:

simple & functional: thumb

 

[Asa]

What I like about the stock manifold is that its pretty simple to get a flange for your turbo, saw manifold off, check for proper fit, bolt on junk head, throw in the oven, pull out and weld, surface flange if needed and you're done.

You might be surprised at how hard it is to get someone to accept that cast iron can be welded, especially if it is someone that does it for a living :roll:
What does the flange need to be made of, and how would you weld it? MIG? Arc? What material for the wire or stick?

 

[powerband]

... back to novice - basic turbo exhaust questions :

... to mount/build a T3/4 flange, the turbo oil lines dictate placement (afaik) , not sure I understand: centered vs tangential flange. Are the housings all clockable?, is their a standard orientation I'm dim about?...

also maybe best as separate thread: how-to successfully MIG or ARC steel turbo flange to old exh. manifold? - with pictures.

thanks

 

[First Fox]

Initially considered mounting a Turbo easily accessible towards OEM batty location , within discussion, simple yet most efficient location seems: closest to an OEM manifold outlet as possible. (I am working with a 250 block with lowmount bell.)



my old eyes g'gld up a pic of a mod's exh manifold similar to discussion:

simple & functional: thumb

That is certainly a very efficient location for the turbo and a great way to mount it IF space allows. In a truck, this is certainly doable, and may be workable in a car chassis as well, but it would be tight as it would likely be right on the shock tower and also very close to the starter. I am personally going to take a page from Linc's 200 and use a "J" pipe and mount it between the strut tower and the original battery location.

Unless I were to know for a fact that efficiency would suffer dramatically by mounting it in my location, that's where it is going for packaging reasons and also to allow the "tweaking" of the flange angle for further flexibility in the packaging. 8)

 

[First Fox]

... back to a novice - basic turbo exhaust questions :

... to mount/build a T3/4 flange, the turbo oil lines dictate placement (afaik) , not sure I understand: centered vs tangential flange. Are the housings all clockable?, is their a standard orientation I'm dim about?...

thanks

I am not sure if they are all clockable, but if I were looking at a non-clocakble unit i would walk away from it as it would only likely fit a given application and it would likely not work in your or mine. The Garrett (just sold it and am buying another) I was going to use was completely clockable. You just need to make sure center section has the the oil inlet on the top, and the outlet on the bottom. The turbine and compressor housing be clocked whichever way works for your setup.

The centered/vs tangential housing thing doesn't change the mounting at all. It is a matter of the way the turbine is housing is cast, with the tangential style being more efficient. I see a lot of the on center units used on diesels, not sure why though. You will be able to tell by looking at a given turbo if it is center or tangential.

 

[drag-200stang]

Bubba,

My eyes are OK but, my brain is shot. I can't get photobucket thumbnails to work properly. I'm gonna work on it but, meanwhile you can go to Classic Inlines, Engine Photos under boosted turbo section - there's a larger picture there.

Asa,

I'm no professional, I'm just a hobbyist. Ak Miller welded this turbo manifold using a stick welder and nickle rod. I added the waste gate by welding with a tig welder and nickle rod. Don't know if that's the right way but that's what I had on hand and it worked fine. I would think mild steel for a flange would be OK. Next time I'm out in the garage, I will check to see what material the flange is made of. I know cast iron plate is available. It may be harder to weld 2 difficult welding materials together instead of just one, don't know. I think the generally thought of welding cast iron is to heat it up, weld it and cool it down slowly. Some people talk of tapping on it with a hammer as it cools.

Powerband,

This manifold is for a 250 in a Maverick. Ak Miller used the T04 S turbo on the 250's. He sold me the larger V1 that he used on the 300's. Your engine bay may be a little smaller than a Maverick but there's always something that can be done.

I think most after market turbos are clockable both on the hot side and the cold side. Not sure on the OEM stuff.

 

[bubba22349]

drag-200stang, Thank you did find it with your tip and could see it it sure looks like a good design, was also searching though some the older posts to see if there were some pictures of your Mustang none left. Think that might of happen when the site went down some years back. I read many of Ak Millers articles in the Mags (Hot Rod) in the 1960's and early 70 on the Falcon sixes also went to his shop a couple of times too. I missed seeing or reading about his Turbo six experiments though.

 

[powerband]

related to placement discussion, here's a nice 200 basic backyard "J-Pipe" turbo with some good pics illustrating, I like the use of battery location for intercooler. :


http://www.cardomain.com/ride/835587/19 ... 8355870005

have (boosted) fun

 

[xctasy]

Bubba,

My eyes are OK but, my brain is shot. I can't get photobucket thumbnails to work properly. I'm gonna work on it but, meanwhile you can go to Classic Inlines, Engine Photos under boosted turbo section - there's a larger picture there.

Man, just lost 10 minutes of post update on left hand starter motors in Aussie I6's and Windsor/Romeo and Coyote V8's. It was a tribute to you.

But I X@##$%% :thumbdown: :fume: :shockin: :splat: was typing to fast to save it cause I had 8 windows open already .

But if you use the quote command, it'll show you two ways of getting the clickable waearble art work to wounderfully explode up a whole bunch by one click. Hope ya like it, bro!







Once the low mount small block Ford 250/300/SBF pattern bell is used, you can copy the 1992 to date V8 left hand starter system. Because the OHC I6 from Dec 1987 pre-production was designed with the AIT turbo in mind, the starter was shifted to the 265 Hemi Chrysler Borg Warner set up by Ford Australia. The American import 5.0 225 HP engine got an Aussie special low mount starter without SBF block mods to suit the Right Hooker Aussie Falcons. Previously, the RHD X-shell (early Mustang based Windsor and Clevelands in a US designed coil over a arm unibody) had the US right hand starters, and had enough space to fit em.

With the Cologne built 2.0 engines, Ford of Europe cast the Hummer trans with two bumps for left or right starter, the Cologne V6 had the left hand starter, and anytime you go to the left hand starter on the I6, you can make an O for Orsome exhast out of the C code 250 or B and X code 200 4.25" four bolt exhast manifolds, and make it good.

I use all your tricks you used to get a good turbo kit to use the C,B and X code headers my FAZER turbo engines, because you can fit a 4-stage V8 auto gearbox in with a huge turbo with standard factory parts.

AK Millar could have sorted out Fords 2.3 Turbo carb problems. His LPG turbo work on the 71-77 250 and 300 and also the 1981 255 -and Factory Impco W code Carb 2.3 Turbo carb engines followed a lot of his excellent carb adaptor work. Ford could cover off product liablity with his work under those projects, they could cover off the welded three and Four port "horseing around with the mustang six" mods. Ak was a leading light, it remains for Linc's later work on the drag200 stang low mount starter turbo to be fanned into flame...

Your 200 engine has all the good features I liked in Ak and Lincs set up. The 425 hp FAZER6Ti covers off all the turbo exhast problems with a factory turbo solution. One Brazillan Cologne V6 bell housing to a SBF block made me see that the Ford Australia already had a factory solution to the I6 Turbo exhast manifold limits.

The best thing any of us can do is learn what people did 5, 10, 15 and 30 years ago, and copy it!

And anothe thing, drag 200stang. In addition to showing us all your excellent turbo set up, your Bosch L jetronic work and photos has solved lots of turbo set up issues.

If you go to Mustang Geezers latest engine upgrade post, we've gone through the clickable big picture method of photo management. Its a swearing inducer first up, but with practice, you'll ler to tollerate it. When you are able to copy a book of my desk with a camera shot, load it to photobucket, and have Chad in America respond with yippee when he links on to it with his i phone, you'll get a huge, massive kick like 14 pounds of boost coming into a 200 cubic inch Ford.

 

[xctasy]

Left hand starters, either by fitting a small 138 teeth Cologne V6 trans(5R55) or by buying an Aussie Left hand starter 164 teeth T5 bellhousing, can allow you to run the big turbos with a very nice 1981 to 1983 C, B or X code header.


See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67524&start=50#p523895


I sent this to RickWrench about his Brazillian mate who used and perfected the kit back in the early Naughties

Way back, I remember your brilliant Brazillian friends Alfa Romeo GTV 5000 with 302 Small block Ford with a Cologne V6 gearbox adaptor plate, 138 tooth flywheel and its 5 speed gearbox mated up to down size the 141/148/157/164 tooth bellhousing enough to fit in the 1750 derived engine bay.

Done a heap of research, mixed and matched some photo's




and I'm gonna use the idea myself. I can ad lib it from here, but do you still have any contact with him, and if so, what thickness was used, and how does the little 138 flywheel mate to the 3" pitch 6 bolt 3.625" crank flange. Is he making a kit. If not, its a really good idea and would allow all the stronger 5r55 auto gearboxes to fit behind any 302 small block.

Best wishes,

Dean from New Zealand


And for 164 teeth Ford T5 bell housing but with Australian left hand starter motor, just perfect for a turbo I6 3.3 BIG BELL or 250 I6

http://imgc.classistatic.com/cps/blnc/1 ... 0l_20.jpeg



Our Aussie Fords had BTR LE 85, 95 and 97/Borg Warner fully electronic 4 stage autos. The V8 version had a left hand side starter too. Its not an AOD or AOD-E or 5r55 trans, but its easy as pie to alloy weld a left hand starter mount into the US AOD, AOD-E or 55r5 case. This used to be done for some space limited conversions in the old days