Turbo 300 in a F150

[Turbo_B]

Add a 4th to the list of Mech_E!

The 11" clutch bolts right up to the stock flywheel. I had slipped the stock 10" a few times and decided to replace it with the 11" when I rebuilt the engine. I have never had the 11" slip. When I pulled the M5OD I also removed the shifter cover to inspect the gears. The input shaft gear had begun to gall - that transmission had pulled a lot of cars and still drove fine.

My WG actuator is from some little Garrett, I modified the Holset WG bracket to hold the actuator since the rod is shorter.


Back in the spring I picked up an old Logan 10" lathe and spent the following months cleaning, and painting it.


Of course then I needed something to make on the new tool, and with EDIS I didn't need a distributor any more.




There are bronze bushings to support the shaft, brass washers on the top and bottom to take any thrust, and cross drilled to pick up the oil from the distributor oil port.

 

[bubba22349]

Nice machining job!

 

[guhfluh]

The truck has been running well since December - except for the rodent that ate the fuel line and then two weeks later the PIP wire going to Megasquirt...

Some of the knocking issues I had at 8psi were definitely due to the TFI. Its at 10psi now but that is about all it will run until I buy more parts -the wastegate boost reference line is unhooked, drive pressure pushes the gate open at 10psi consistently! The timing is very retarded at 10psi, but it moves pretty well. I have considered replacing the wastegate with stronger spring model, but haven't pulled the trigger. I am certain that it will handle more boost with the EDIS system, wastegate just won't hold more boost!

There are pictures in this thread somewhere of the ZF5 - it went in over two years ago with a custom drive shaft. Works perfectly!

I should post pictures of the oil pump drive I made. Engine hasn't had a distributor in a few months!

If you're cheap and resourceful, you could run boost pressure on TOP of the diaphragm, with a controller, to keep the gate shut and raise the boost without swapping springs, etc. Just an idea if you wanted to mess with it.

 

[JonL]

I like the torque arm you added above the distributer. Did you make it?

I am running a carbed head -.020 milled off, dished pistons, 234 degrees @.050 intake and 236 on the exhaust. 30 degrees total advance at 15psi and 91 octane.

My M5OD clutch started slipping replaced it with a C6.

 

[Turbo_B]

The stay rod attached to the head is actually ... two late 80's Accord upper transmission mounts complete with rubber bushings!

 

[motzingg]

The input shaft gear had begun to gall - that transmission had pulled a lot of cars and still drove fine.

that is the fear. see the thing is, high pressure gear lubes use sulphur based compounds to prevent that sort of thing... the 'cat pee' smell from gear oil is a sulfate extreme pressure additive.

when you put gear oil in your np-435 its gonna keep it from galling gears, but the clearances and bearings were designed for that thick oil. The M5 is going to have narrower passages for thinner oil (ATF) to work correctly in the bearings, but its not going to have that EP additive, so you're going to see galling under heavy load.

so the goal is to either find a very thin gear oil with the EP additive or find an ATF like bel-ray maybe that might have an EP additive. I know they got better stuff nowadays like moly based whatever so that might be something else to look into.

 

[guhfluh]

There are hydraulic oils that match ATF's viscosity and contain EP additives for steel on steel wear. JD low vis Hy-guard comes to mind, but there are others. Some like to run full syn ATF and add EOS, or a quart of high zinc oil.

 

[motzingg]

yeah!

hot damn i should'a known that, i used to work in a hydraulics testing lab. completely forgot about AW and Hy-tran oils. Maybe something like a Hy-tran 32 would be a good choice.

I've been told not to run detergent oils in a transmission because there is nowhere for the detergent sludge to go, if it gets created, and there can be seal compatability issues, although in a modern M5 trans they should be all Viton.

I would have to do some digging but isn't there a thing with Zinc that it has to be hot in order to work? I thought there was something to that, why they don't use it in gear oils.


anyhow now that we're way the hell off topic. sorry... I am going to do some research into HY-tran or AW hydraulic oils and see if i can find something compatable.

 

[JonL]

I cant help chime in on this one. Im a hydraulics engr at CNH. Use Hytran ultraction it has similar viscosity at cold temps to hytran ultra and higher viscosity at operating temps. We just switched over our transmissions on 4WD tractors. Has all the good stuff you needin it. Used on 620hp 2200lbft tractors. I can send datasheets if u want them.

 

[J.R.]

JonL wrote, "... Use Hytran ultraction".

With the wide temperature range indicated, that sounds like a synthetic base lube. Is that also the best lube for old Dana/Spicer transfer cases too, as opposed to common 90W gear oil (presumably no longer containing Zinc additives)?


J.R.
SoCal

 

[guhfluh]

JonL wrote, "... Use Hytran ultraction".

With the wide temperature range indicated, that sounds like a synthetic base lube. Is that also the best lube for old Dana/Spicer transfer cases too, as opposed to common 90W gear oil (presumably no longer containing Zinc additives)?


J.R.
SoCal

I would presume not. 90W gear oil should still have zinc, etc. EP wear additives and be in a different viscosity range, though I haven't looked up Ultratraction's vis. The M5OD being designed for ATF(thin) and your case designed for 90W(thick), I'd be leary about using the same fluid for both. JonL would be more informed on which would be suited as a replacement, and a more informed answer for your question, but bobistheoilguy.com has a lot of info on different fluids for you to look into and help you decide(or confuse you really bad ). There are a lot of hydraulic oils out there that aren't synthetic, yet actually rival some synthetics with their performance; I've been suprised in the past.

 

[motzingg]

I cant help chime in on this one. Im a hydraulics engr at CNH. Use Hytran ultraction it has similar viscosity at cold temps to hytran ultra and higher viscosity at operating temps. We just switched over our transmissions on 4WD tractors. Has all the good stuff you needin it. Used on 620hp 2200lbft tractors. I can send datasheets if u want them.

hey that's cool, i've done some testing for CNH, we tested some of the pumps and motors for skidsteers there in milwaukee, and i think i did an impulse test on hose assemblies? it was a long time ago.

where are you located? i thought most of that was being done in eastern WI, manitowoc/sheboygan, racine, etc. but i know they are a pretty big company.

do you ever run across a guy named John Vacca? I used to work with him.

 

[guhfluh]

yeah!

hot damn i should'a known that, i used to work in a hydraulics testing lab. completely forgot about AW and Hy-tran oils. Maybe something like a Hy-tran 32 would be a good choice.

I've been told not to run detergent oils in a transmission because there is nowhere for the detergent sludge to go, if it gets created, and there can be seal compatability issues, although in a modern M5 trans they should be all Viton.

I would have to do some digging but isn't there a thing with Zinc that it has to be hot in order to work? I thought there was something to that, why they don't use it in gear oils.


anyhow now that we're way the heck off topic. sorry... I am going to do some research into HY-tran or AW hydraulic oils and see if i can find something compatable.

I wouldn't be concerned with seals at all, but zinc and yellow metals don't get along, so some transmissions don't like a super high zinc content. Some use brass synchro parts, etc.

 

[Turbo_B]

It has been over a year since I last updated this thread!

The truck is still running, I have been driving it daily since July 2015.

Figured I would share a video. The truck does run up to 14psi, but the timing is heavily retarded at that pressure.

https://youtu.be/FZMNodgBTRc

 

[bubba22349]

congrats it sounds like it runs and pull really good.

 

[drag-200stang]

Good job But is it really retarded if it still fires before top dead center.

 

[MECH_E]

He's probably saying its retarded in reference to where it would be NA. So if it ran 30 degrees BTDC up top NA, its likely running 12-15 BTDC now.

Being that your in Charlotte, we should meet up at a car show or something, compare power levels. It'd have to be in the summer though, my truck runs like crap in the winter with e85, I think its the cheap injectors I have. Let me know if you take it to any car meets up there, its only 1.5 hours away from me.

 

[Turbo_B]

Maybe retarded is the wrong word, the timing is soft at peak boost. The 100kpa timing is around 30 degrees at 3000rpm. At 14psi I have 1 degree in it at 2000rpm and goes up to 6 degrees by 4500 rpm. I know it is giving up power, but I don't hear it knocking either.

We do have a Cars and Coffee meet in Charlotte on the 1st Saturday of each month. They just changed locations and have a temporary spot at an exotic car dealer. They are trying to find a permanent spot. At this time it's a bit too cool for me to hang out early on a Saturday!

 

[Turbo_B]

This is one of my last updates to this thread. This past weekend I bought a new to me half ton V8 truck. Until Saturday December 10, I have been driving the turbo F150 every day for the past year and a half.

That said, the Turbo F150 is for sale. I have about 35k miles on this engine and the only known issue is the clutch chatters when warm. Power windows work, locks work, heat works, cruise works, has CD player - has A/C parts but no hoses. I will provide you all of the tune and data log files that I have.

$4,000 firm.

My profile location says Charlotte, NC. I am actually about 30 minutes south in Rock Hill, SC.

Shoot me a PM if interested

 

[guhfluh]

Hate to see you move on, but glad the truck has been good to you! Pretty good price for all you've got in it too!

I've got a question though. What application is that 11" clutch out of that you say is a direct replacement? Is it a diaphragm or 3 finger?

I ask because I "upgraded" my old style 11" 3 finger with a newer model diaphragm, but all I could find was a 10" and had to switch flywheels as well for the different bolt pattern. I'd like to go back to an 11" though.