Upgrading 200 ci, 600 cfm 4v too much?

Interceptor

New member
Hello forum members,

I'm in the middle of deciding which parts I have to order.
The ci aluminium head + 4V adaptor, duplex timer chain and high rockers 1.6 or roller 1.6 are already decided on.
And a couple more parts.
Only problem I have is that I don't know which pushrods I need and I want to order everything at once since I live in The Netherlands.
I have a stock 200ci 1967 at the moment nothing ever done to it (milling etc)
Is there a chance anyone could tell me which pushrods I need?
I would also like to know if the ci roller tipped 1.6 rockers are worth the extra €200 compared to the 1.6 high ratio rockers?

Greetings from the Netherlands,

Johan
 
Johan, if you get the 1.6 roller tip rocker, just use pushrods for the adjustable rocker arms. I would suggest getting a new set from Mike @ classic inlines cause they are lighter than the stock pushrods.
Now if you go the 1.65 full roller rocker arms, you need small block ford oil through lifters & the oil through pushrods also available as a package from Mike.
You should also install a pipe plug in the block where the old rocker arm shaft oil comes from the main oil galley. Failure to do this & you will probably develop an oil leak at the head gasket area at the left rear of the engine. The head gasket was not designed to handle the oil pressure.
Also recommended is to get more oil to the distributor gear by cutting a oil groove in #2 & #3 lifters. See my post in small six section of the forum.
To answer your first question, yes the roller rocker arms whether they be 1.6 or 1.65 are worth the money. Bill
 
Ok kinda figured out the 1.6 rollers where the choice for me. :thanks:
But what about the lenght of the pushrods?
I can't measure them because I don't have the rockerarms yet, and I want to order everything in 1 go.

And if pick these (Product ID: RAS-200-ANP) on the CI-site.
I have 3 options:

- 8.030
- 8.125
- 8.230

I have no clue which are fitted for my engine?
(stockbottom & alu head.)

Another question in between:
If I get a new holley 600CFM 4V will I have enough clearance for a normal airfilter like I have now?
Or do I have to get a cold intake I see alot on the pictures?

Thanks in advance,

Johan
 
Howdy:

Hey Bill, I missed your post on grooving the lifters to get more oil to the distributor gear. Did a search and got nothing. Where is it? Thanks Bill. Sorry for the high jack.

Adios, David
 
David, R.Bohm posted it for me when i had router problems & could not access the forum.
When you install the yella-terra rocker arms you starve the distributor gear & camshaft gear of very needed lubrication.
To fix that condition the second & third lifters are on either side of the oil hole above the gears.
You can cut a .025" x .025" groove in those two lifters and that will flood the area with the necessary lubrication to prevent scoring of the gears.
http://i.imgur.com/eOBfvyU.jpg
Tech article by Bill Ambler billythedistributorman@live.com
 
I always measure from center to center. Comp Cams and Classic In Lines measure tip to tip.

Use the production stock ones are at 7.975" (202.5 mm) center to center or 8.350" (212 mm ) tip to tip.

The use of a Ford 302 edge oriface lifter requires a shorter pushrod as the lifters are 150 thou shallower. So a 8.35 pushrod should be replaced by Mikes 8.23" tip to tip items. If you shave the head 100 thou, then you'll need 8.125" pushrods. 8.003" are for situation where you've increased the lift by a reduced base circle diameter cam.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72641&p=558271#p558271
xctasy":1tolkr93 said:
The original 250 2V Aussie valve gear is adjustable, and is best replaced by the same ball and cup adjustable valve gear pre 1966 Ford 200, and the right adjustable valve gear 200 pushrod if you are using the stock Aussie rocker cover.

If you use the Fox body or post 1975 rocker cover, the baffles will rub the adjustable rocker gear.

See polished rub marks in the red squares. They have to clear that kind of rocker cover.



If you use your stock non adjustable 200 log head gear, you use the stock ball and ball non adjustable 200 valve gear from any 1967 to 1983 200/3.3.


The two types of pushrods have a nominal length of about 7.975 inches from the mid point of the ball to ball or or mid point of the Cup centre to ball in the case of the adjustables. The way the catalouge pushers measure them differ, ball and ball items from Comp Cams measure 8.350" from the tip to tip, because they add 3/8" for the balls. I always measure center to center.

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.c ... 66Pushrods

The push rods I have are nominal length of about 7.975 to 8.012 (or 202.5 to 203.5 mm in my picture) ball to ball or Cup center to ball in the case of the adjustables.




The rockers wipe a valve which is a little wider than the stock US 200 log head, but as long as the orginal rockers are not worn and still surfaced, everything should be fine.

The original rear rocker tube bolt needs to be clean and able to supply oil.

https://www.fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic ... w=previous
https://www.fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic ... 27#p523527

Its very easy to get confused...the stock pushrods are the same effecive length.

Look at the last two pushrods for comparison. The ball on ball non adjustable is on the bottom.


 
So from what I understand of it.
The ones I need are 8.350" measured from tip-tip?

Than I think my list is nearly complete.

Oh and the other question does anyone know that?

Another question in between:
If I get a new holley 600CFM 4V will I have enough clearance for a normal airfilter like I have now?
Or do I have to get a cold intake I see alot on the pictures?
 
*What follows is in metrics and imperial, and fractions, (quarter, eights, sixtenths) and decimals of imperial. Most of us use a decimal point dot(,) not a cooma (,) for decimlal point, and mm's not cm.


You have to work it out to suit your application. but generally no one uses the stock 14" by 2" (381 x 51 mm) diametter 289/302/351 Holley or Ford Motorsport performance air cleaner as the spring tower braces and carb linkages don't make it an easy fit. See the Aluminum head forum, and check the dyno room on the Classic Inlines page.Here is an example of the best way to go.

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=63391

and on there is grendi_250c and 65HT200FIN

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/1208e ... 00_jpg_srz

Classic inlines have the info to send you a kit that willl fit under your hood without a problem. Its only with the much taller 250 six that you have 1-11/16" (42.9 mm ) less head room to play with.


What follows is the measurements excluding the spring towers, braces, and accelerator cable linkages. Hope this helps.


Depending on what kind of rocker cover, the air cleaner can be 4-3/4"(120.7 mm) above the rocker cover and still fit under the hood. You can go the about 2" (50.8 mm) tall for the air cleaner filter, and the baseis about 2-1/2" (63.5 mm), with the lid up 1" (25.4mm) for a total of 3-1/2" (88.9mm). That aalows the air cleaner base to be about 1-1/4" (31.8mm) above the air cleaner at the carb centerline. The engine tilts at 4 degrees, but the carb base flange is level, so the air cleaner is closer to the front of the rocker cover

All log heads sit at about 4-3/4" (120.7 mm) from head gasket to carb base, then a nominal 5-1/8" (130.2 mm) to the air cleaner base, making it 9-7/8" (250.8 mm )tall from head gasket to the base of the carb air cleaner. Sometimes there is a 1/2" (12.7 mm) spacer, which may raise the total height to 10-3/8" (263.5 mm) to the air cleaner base. The standard Ford log head carbs don't have much of a choke horn...its small.

The Holley 2300 2-bbls and 4150/4160/4165/4175/4180 4-bbls are all 5-5/16" (134.9 mm ) tall unless they have the air horn choke cut off.

This the Classic Inlines example.
intakeD.JPG



The 9.125" is 9-1/8", or 231.8 mm, but it really should read 10.6875", 10-11/16", (or 271.5 mm)

There are missing dimensions. The dimension of the carb to air cleaner base is 3-3/4" (95.2 mm ) tall, and 1-9/16" (39.7mm) of choke sticks above the air cleaner base, making that 5-5/16" (134.9mm) tall .

The Classic Inlines aluminum head measurement needs 1-9/16" (39.7mm) of choke added to the 9-1/8" measurement from the base of the head.
 
Update :

This probebly isn't going to happen since the price is insane to get all the parts.
It's going to cost around $4200 that's still acceptable.
But to get it here it will cost me around €6000. :cry:
 
Interceptor":10bigkkv said:
Update :

This probebly isn't going to happen since the price is insane to get all the parts.
It's going to cost around $4200 that's still acceptable.
But to get it here it will cost me around €6000. :cry:

I feel your pain. When I get anything shipped from Australia, the shipping cost is almost as much as the purchase price.
Cheapest shipping I found is ground/water; if you're willing to wait 2-3 months for anything to arrive.
 
New years resution: I'm doing it anyway.

Another question, is a new 600 cfm 4v manual choke(cjpony) too big for a 200?
I'm reading around and I do see them but most guys are using 2v.
 
hallo johan nice to seean other dutchman over here,,
i am gonna follow youre project can you put some photo s
over here??

greetings (groeten) JD.
 
Howdy Johan. Thanks for your countrymen discovering New Zealand in 1642. Abel was from Lutjegast...

JD and I build roads out of asphalt and test them with nuclear desnity meters from the USA...

Classic Inlines website covers this very nicely in its literature and Dyno Room engines.

Basically, ideal CFM is dependent on:-

1. Capacity
2.Transmission (manual, over driven manual, stock automatic or modified with high stall ratio).
3. Cam, lift and duration,
4. Axle ratio,
5. Power options (Power steering and air coditioning).
6. The intake and exhaust manifolding
(this defines the number of venturis to cylinders. 1-bbl or 2-bbl for 6 cylinders, 3"Hg pressure, 4-bbl, 1.5" pressure, 1.41 less cfm. With 6 ventuir per carb, the flow drop is still listed as 1.5"Hg, but there is no way an engien will reach that.)

If you aren't using an independent runner, port on port carburation system, its very easy to have a poor off idle hole with a carb too big.

On the smaller 200, you'll be fine with 4-bbl Holley 465 cfm upwards. 4-bbl Holley 600 cfm is not too large if you have a high stall converter automatic, and numerically high axle ratio. For other kinds of carb, like a 4-bbl Edelbrock 1405 carb, one with metering rods and mechancial secondary barrels and a manual choke, which is set up rich form the factory.

If you are planning on running 2-bbl, know this:-

Don't use a staged 32/36 Weber or Holley Weber 5200 (25/26 mm 280 cfm both at 3.0"Hg)


Instead use a Granada/Capri 38 DGAS , a 1.06" 27 mm venturi carb which flows 300 cfm at 3.0"Hg.
The 350 cfm 2-bbl Holley 2300 series 7448 is a 1.188" Venturi carb with (30 mm venturis)
The 500 cfm 2-bbl Holley 2300 series is a 1.375" Venturi carb with (35mm venturis)


There are other US Ford 2-BBLS, the:-

0.98 Venturi (190 CFM) ex 221 Windsor, (25 mm venturis)

1.01 Venturi (240 CFM) ex 260 Windsor, (25.6 mm venturis)

1.02 Venturi (245 CFM) ex 289 Windsor, 272, 292 Y Block (26 mm venturis)

1.08 Venturi (287 CFM) ex 289 Windsor, 302 Windsor (27 mm venturis)

1.14 Venturi (300 CFM) ex 289 Windsor, 312 Y Block, 332, 352 FE (29 mm venturis)

1.21 Venturi (351 CFM) ex 351 Windsor (31 mm venturis)

1.23 Venturi (356 CFM) ex 352 FE, 390 FE (31.2 mm venturis)

1.33 Venturi (424 CFM) ex 390 FE (34 mm venturis)


Just note from historicals. A traditional European six cylinder engines from about 1975 to before 1981 would run a 4-bbl, or early electronic or mechanical injection, and sit in the 150 to 210 PS bracket. Back then, a typical French Solex 4-bbl used in 2.5/2.8/3.0 Opels, 2.0/2.3/2.8/3.0 BMW's or 2.8 Merceades sixes would always run like crap. There was little you could do to improve it becasue you had a small engine with poor manifolding and a quite large carb. The next step up were the much nicer fuel injected versions, which would often have brilliant idle and strong acceleration. Then there were the aftermarket Triple Weber triple DCOE 40/42/45's, versions would be a step up again with even more power, and an even more tractable , docile idle. The prospect of a 4-bbl 3.3 Ford six is that if you over size the carb, it will run as badly as those old Commodore A's, BMW 3.0S's and 280 MB's did on there 4-bbls in the late 70's or early 80'. So be carefull.


Incidentally, the three carb system JD uses puts out up to 446 cfm as a 3-bbl carb, rated at 1.5"Hg. That's how I know your I6 will cope with more than that okay.

There is enough flow from a setup like JD's to make 220 PS.
 
JD: Hallo Jan sended you a message a while ago on the dutch mustang & ford forum to check how you ordered your parts.

xctasy: Haha I wish I would have been born there.
Australia, America both better than this country, it's way way WAY to compact in the Netherlands.

Ok since I'm still learning (22 now, no car mechanic)

1. 3.3L? 3300cc? 200ci? :lol: ( Not sure which capacity I'm looking for carb or engine size? )
2. Stock 3 speed automatic
3. Stock cam -> maybe a small upgrade in the future but nothing to fancy no dragracer.
I do want to order the Adjustable 1.6 Roller-Tipped Rocker Arms + 8.230"pushrods but that has nothing to do with you lift right?
4. 7.25" with 3.25
5. Power steering, and just a plain old heater ( to bad I don't have ac )
6. Well I was planning on the alu head + intake manifold off the self from CI.
With their headers aswell

head3.JPG


Not sure if you can help me pick a carb out with this info?
 
Interceptor":1iyjzx1h said:
......
I do want to order the Adjustable 1.6 Roller-Tipped Rocker Arms + 8.230"pushrods but that has nothing to do with you lift right?

Not sure if you can help me pick a carb out with this info?

The stock camshaft lift is increased from 370 thou (9.4 mm) to almost 400 thou (about 10 mm) via those roller rockers. They are a good choice, and will improve your flow to 180 cfm from about 170cfm. They are a very good choice.



Don't use a 600 cfm 4-bbl, because of your stock transmission and cam. The 465 and 390 cfm versions are the same physical size, but have a smaller set of venturis and will suit your car better.


Google searched "Classic in-lines 600 cfm carb for my CI head"


From that, I got http://www.classicinlines.com/CarbChoice.asp

JohanInterceptorStockCamClassicInlines1_4.jpg
JohanInterceptorStockCamClassicInlines2_4.jpg

JohanInterceptorStockCamClassicInlines3_4.jpg
JohanInterceptorStockCamClassicInlines4_4.jpg



Recommendation for your engine, 285 to 310 cfm.

So anything 2-bbl or 4-bbl from:

1.08 Venturi (287 CFM) ex 289 Windsor, 302 Windsor (27 mm venturis)
1.06 Venturi DGAS 38 (300 CFM) ex Euro Granada or Capri 2.8/3.0 (27 mm venturis)
1.14 Venturi (300 CFM) ex 289 Windsor, 312 Y Block, 332, 352 FE (29 mm venturis)
1.21 Venturi (351 cfm) isn't too big

The best Motorcraft carb is the modern 2150, around in 1.08 venturi, 287 CFM and 1.21 venturi, 351 CFM cfm forms. The last 2-bbl 157 HP 5.0 82 Mustang had one, its a 1973-1982 351 cu in (5.8 L) Windsor, 1977-1982 351 cu in (5.8 L) 351M, 1977-1979 400 cu in (6.6 L) carb. The little 287 cfm item is found on everything from the 115 hp 255 (4.2s) to most 137 to 140 hp 302 (5.0)'s. Great carbs.


From personal experience, the vacuum secondary #8007 Holley 390 cfm 4-bbl works well, idles better than any 2-bbl. Its a standard 3.5 liter DAF/Rover/LandRover replacement carb for engines in the 125 to 245 hp bracket. Four 27 mm venturis, idles on two, then stages two more 27 mm barrels. It's a little hard to get, but works very well.

You have to make a few little changes to the fuel delivery line or reposition the engine a little to fit it in the engine bay, but it will fit. It looes exactly like the 465, 470, 600 cfm Holleys.


Clearance Issues For 4-bbls:

See http://www.classicinlines.com/AlumInstalls.asp

Our long time member wcol has done the conversion.

He settled on a 4-bbl Edelbrock, ( AVS thunder series 4 bbl carburetor is 500cfm ) but his car is a 5-speed T5 manual with cam. He has, like others, looked at different 4-bbls to fit the engine bay best. Holley 465 cfm 4-bbls are much harder to fit than Holley or Autolite 2-bbls. The are also smaller float bowl conversions if something on a 4-bbl Holley hits the brace bars.

This is an Edelbrock AVS thunder series 4 bbl carburetor 500cfm 1406



This is a 4-bbl Holley 465 CFM mounted properly, showing some space limits






Modern low slung hoods are problems when you start adding V8 style carburation to an I6. For a while, it looked like people would be happy with special hood sccops, like this one for the 1970 Maverick.

70mavigt23bbl.jpg



The public never liked those solutions, so the old time drag racer solved all the carb space issues from 1973 on wards to the early 8o's with special intake adaptors.

The American Impco company, with Ak Miller, made Propane conversions, so if you have space limitations, the parts used for old V8 propane cars 9 times out of 10 will solve any carb space problems.

For air cleaner, use the Impco CA 300A long snorkel which you find on many Dutch Propane Gas converted V8's. It allows you to fit everything under the hood. See

 
After testing we did at Ford compairing stock slipper tip rockers to roller tip rocker and full roller rockers I would never purchase roller tip only rockers.
 
Roller rockers is an endless debate I think.
Some yes some no's.

So 390 or 465 is a safer pick?
Difference between those is a hot air vs eletric choke.
And the throttle bore.

Which is easier to instal?
 
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