Which is more desirable?

[AzCoupe]

A S/C kit is going to be expensive for me to develop, and it will be expensive to purchase. As for my part, I would probably develop and sell a kit with all the bracketry, pulleys, plumbing, and an optional intercooler. But leave the purchase of the supercharger up to you guys. However if I went with the M90, I would probably offer new units as I can buy them at a nice discount.

The Procharger seems like the best S/C, however they are quite expensive. Occasionally you can get them on e-bay for $2500 up to $4000, or new for something like $5000. I have a mock up on the way so I can start on a kit, but I am considering sending it back and getting my money refunded. I ordered it out of impulse, without really thinking it over, but I've been reading thru some of the topics and am now wondering if it was a wise choice? If I don't open it up and send it back, I can get my money refunded. The mock-up kit contains a S/C housing, carb hat, and some pipes.

The Eaton M90 is a bit tougher to mount, considering it would require modifing my current manifold or making a new one. And we would need to figure out where and how to mount a carb and/or throttle body. The drawback is that the best place to mount it would be over the header. While the advantage is they are much cheaper to purchase. I can get them new for about $1500, or you can but one on e-bay for as little $300, on up to a grand. They are also readily found in salvage yards, which is a big plus.

Paxton blowers are sort of in the middle. They sell for around $3000 new (I think), or occasionally on e-bay for $1000-2500. Again they would be easier to mount and more are flexible, like the Procharger, but used ones a hard to find. I also have the use of the original tooling available to me, as I know the person who purchased it.

The other thing to consider is the type of head. An M90 would be best suited to the new aluminum head, with the removable intake. But a Paxton or Procharger could be made to use on any style head.

Hence, I'm wondering how many of you are really serious about purchasing a kit, and if it will be worth my time, effort, and expense to develop a kit. Also which system most of you would prefer? Or if I would be better off working on a cast iron turbo manifold and kit.

 

[StrangeRanger]

Just to clarify, this is for the small six right?
Any plans, no matter how nebulous, for the big six?

 

[AzCoupe]

Yes, this is for the small sixes. We'll do big sixes too, but not until we have most of the small six stuff taken care of. Or maybe once the big six head is done, which shouldn't be much longer.

 

[Bort62]

It is also important to note that the M90 and Procharger are completely different types of superchargers with extremely different performance potential and driveability profiles.

The M90 can also be mounted "remote" like the ATI with a little additional fabrication. No intake integration needed.

It is my opinion that a M90 kit would be more succesful just because of the lower price. Prochargers are expensive as hell and I haven't seen too much evidence of people on this board being willing to shell out 6 G's for something like a SC kit (how many heads have you actually sold to date as evidence of market for big-ticket items? )

A M90 "bracket" kit would be fairly inexpensive to develop and as such reasonably priced to sell, and the utilization of Junkyard or Ebay M90's seems much more in line with the "spirit" of most people on this board than writing a $5000 check to ATI.

Also, while the performance potential of an M90 is much lower than a Procharger, It is also more in the envelope that is considered practical by most here.

The off-idle power of a positive displacement blower is much more "exciting" in a mild street car than the high-rpm power of a cetrifigual supercharger.

To some, anyway. Look at the hotrod crowd...

To really get your 5 grand out of a cetrifugal blower, you need to build an engine to handle a lot of boost. That's an expensive proposition, and as such you are limiting your market to only those who are capable of dropping 10K + on their next engine build.

However, one could easily run a draw through M90 setup on an entirely stock motor, essentially bolt on, and benifit from a huge performance increase. I think this kind of kit is the type that would sell. (And the price could be very very competative).

A draw through M90 is what I plan on buildin for my next 200 powered car (model A) for it's simplicity and "practical power".

A kit that included all brackets, pulleys, carb mount, etc could be very cost competative $ per HP wise with the other modifications you are selling.

Of course, A cast iron exhaust manifold w/ a T3 flange would probably be a hot ticket, too.

 

[350kmileford]

I agree with the last statement. I would be excited to see a nice turbo manifold. I think a lot of people get scared away by the thought of 'custom fabrication'. Granted, one almost always has to do a bit, but a well-fitting, well-designed manifold would go far.

 

[CobraSix]

I think Bort is fairly accurate on his analysis.

I know that I would have a hard time shelling out the $3k for a procharger on top of all the other upgrades required.

Paxton isn't much better.

For marketability, I do think the M90 is the better all around for larger resell numbers. Cheaper, also fairly common on the used market it good shape. Also, it does not require as many modifications to the engine to handle the power increase since it is not crazy numbers.

Also look at the type of customers. Sure, for serious racers the centrifugal would be the way to go. Me however, I daily drive and rarely push over 4-5k RPM and I would get more pleasure from the low end power availability.

THe only other option I see as a great add on would be a T3 flanged, ceramic coated header. If something like that was readily available, it would push me towards a turbo as I personally prefer turbos to superchargers.

But on my current car, it would be a hard sell since I do like my long tube headers. Plus, the M90 would sit nicely where I have a big open spot on the driver's side of the engine.

I'm still tossing around forced air and with the current available options if I do end up going that route, I'll be using a M90 just for the low cost option.

 

[100_2023]

I think Bort is right on the money. I would have to agree with all of his statements.

Darrell

 

[Anlushac11]

IMHO I would be happy seeing a Turbo kit or even a simple turbo manifold with T3 flange.

Sell the manifold, mounting kit with oil lines, a oil return line to oil pan adapter and then let customers source their own turbos.

Maybe even outsource to a turbo rebuilder who gives forum members discounts.

I would think a welded turbo manifold would be fairly easy to outsource. Does 10 IIRC made his own and I know Stinger from Stangnet and TurboFord inquired here as to whether we would be interested in a tubulkar manifold.

Whichever one we go with I would request a external wastegate mounting flange.

I say welded instead of cast because in the 2.3L crowd there are a number of people with cracked factory cast iron manifolds.

I know the 2.3L crowd, specifically Stinger, are selling tubular welded tubular headers for around $350.00. That price is reasonable and I think a I6 header could be done for a similar cost.

Additionally if it breaks it would be fairly easy to get it repaired.

I would think cast iron would be alot more expensive to do molds and startup. Welded tubular manifold would probably be lots cheaper and not much of a performance difference.

As for supercharger same deal, I would put together a kit to bolt it on and let customers source their own blower.

 

[Bort62]

IMHO I would be happy seeing a Turbo kit or even a simple turbo manifold with T3 flange.

Sell the manifold, mounting kit with oil lines, a oil return line to oil pan adapter and then let customers source their own turbos.

Maybe even outsource to a turbo rebuilder who gives forum members discounts.

I would think a welded turbo manifold would be fairly easy to outsource. Does 10 IIRC made his own and I know Stinger from Stangnet and TurboFord inquired here as to whether we would be interested in a tubulkar manifold.

Whichever one we go with I would request a external wastegate mounting flange.

I say welded instead of cast because in the 2.3L crowd there are a number of people with cracked factory cast iron manifolds.

I know the 2.3L crowd, specifically Stinger, are selling tubular welded tubular headers for around $350.00. That price is reasonable and I think a I6 header could be done for a similar cost.

Additionally if it breaks it would be fairly easy to get it repaired.

I would think cast iron would be alot more expensive to do molds and startup. Welded tubular manifold would probably be lots cheaper and not much of a performance difference.

As for supercharger same deal, I would put together a kit to bolt it on and let customers source their own blower.

Cast Iron setup costs are higher, but per part costs are higher for welded.

Cast would make sense if you plan on making a lot. Welded otherwise.

Welding a header is a very time intensive process, and costs a significant amount in labor.

 

[Anlushac11]

So which will cost more?

Developing molds for a cast iron exhaust manifold that wont crack?

Or labor for a welded turbo manifold?

Mike said he's tapped out after developing the Alloy head and intake.

Wouldn't startup costs on the tubular header be cheaper?

The cost per manifold would reflect the labor costs.

Whichever manifold is chosen my only request is to make it useable on a Fox body Ford.

EDIT: Is it possible to get a flange drilled for T3 and T4 turbo flanges?

 

[XFlow_Fairlane]

really a cast manifold shouldn't require much R&D when compared to the head (no water jackets, ports, etc)trying to package it for both a fox and falcon chassis with a OZ head could be tough though.

 

[Anlushac11]

The Fox Mustang has a wider engine bay and is almost as deep so I dont think fitting a header and turbo would be a problem as long as its tucked high and close to the block.

Where the Fox body differs is that in the Fox body inline six sits much farther forward so it would not be able to use the same down pipe.

My worry with a cast iron turbo manifold is cracking. The 2.3L turbo E3 manifold was notorious for cracking. Even the later much improved E6 cast iron exhaust manifold is not immune to cracking.

My thinking that a tubular manifold probably would not last as long but it would be easier to repair.

Can a high quality cast iron manifold be repaired by welding?

 

[michael_cini]

Wow, do you think it could be made that inexpensively?

I know the 2.3L crowd, specifically Stinger, are selling tubular welded tubular headers for around $350.00. That price is reasonable and I think a I6 header could be done for a similar cost.

 

[Bort62]

I would probably have to charge you close to $1000 to fabricate a turbo header for your car.

Now, my time can be on the expensive side, and I would also be figuring it out as I went, but the labor of fitting and welding all the tube sections together for something like that is pretty large - especially if you want quality work.

Why do you think the current headers cost as much as they do?

FWIW, there is no reason to expect the cost of any turbo header to deviate significantly from headers currently on the market. Likewise, I would expect a turbo manifold to come in fairly cost competitive to current repro exhaust manifolds on the market. (Having a turbo flange instead of a 2bolt exhuast flange will not change the production costs)

I can get a repop exhaust manifold on ebay for 100 bucks, A header is at least 300.

Naturally, volume is a factor. The development costs for the manifold need to be amortized, and expected volume will play a lot into which projects to be less expensive per unit. I could start making you a header tonight - so the development is less but the individual labor cost is more.

Regardless, I think a cast manifold would be the less expensive option if you assume volume will exceed ~ 30 units.

Of course, someone who has recently worked with a foundry would be better able to estimate current mold making and casting costs. Mike?

I would anticipate mold making costs to be similar to the intake manifolds, with cast iron casting costs being slightly lower than aluminum (this is just a guess, I could be completely wrong here). I would guess an amortized sale price of < $250 in quantities one would reasonably expect with this market. I don't think you are going to be able to beat that with a tubular header.

I would be no more worried about cracking a manifold than I would a header, and both can be repaired.

 

[MustangSix]

A hand-made custom set of headers for $1000 might even be cheap, depending on the design.

3/8" stainless flange, tubing, collector, etc. is probably upwards of $200 to $250. A third to half that for mild steel.

2 to 4 hours to cut fit and jig the set; $150 to $300.

Just as a swag, if I were a really good welder, it might take 2 hours to MIG or 4 hours to TIG and dress all those tubes. That's $150-$300 right there, at current shop rates.

All up that's a range of $375 to $850 depending on material and design. Could easily be more.

The only way to fabricate things like this cheaply is to do it in such volume (maybe 1000's) and with a design that allows you to bend and fabricate the tubes, jig it up, and weld it all robotically with little skilled human intervention. But at the very low volumes that turbo headers might be sold, that's just not practical.

Casting is a great idea, but volume is even more important. A very short run of cast iron that size might be as many as 100 pieces. Again, anything less and you are looking at a great deal of skilled labor to make tooling, molding, cores, pouring, dressing, machining, etc.

 

[Bort62]

Just as a swag, if I were a really good welder, it might take 2 hours to MIG or 4 hours to TIG and dress all those tubes. That's $150-$300 right there, at current shop rates.

Dressing and then TIGing a 6 cylinder header correctly in 4 hours would be a world freaking record. It took me nearly 4 hours to extend my golf clubs

Especially in stainless.

I don't know what short run CI casting would look like - but I've gotta believe that it is somewhat feasible due to the availability of re popped stock exhaust manifolds on ebay.

I can't imagine them being run in the 1000's - just not enough market.

 

[Broncitis]

Bort do you do custom work, like build the brackets for an M90 mounted on the drivers side to blow through an intercooler back to the top of the TB, with all the pulleys and support, I may hire you. I have seen a few m90 with everything included from a 3.8 on EBAY for less than 400 dollars numerous times, it appears an M90 is quite easy to rebuild, I know there are many updates to the m90, but I bet we can get 10 lbs through an intercooler with the right pulleys with the older less expensive m90 that came on cougers and mustangs about 87 to 93, these are a dime a dozen. The extrudabody setup mike posted picks of on Aluminum Head is mine, Kevin did one hell of a job, nobody has yet guessed the TBI to be a modified GM TBI, I thought you would have, while I don't like your demeaner, I like your expertise, if your interested let me know and I will post my number, I own a public company anyway so it really doesn't matter.

 

[Funky Cricket]

i didn't vote as I won't be purchasing in the next year (minus a mega millions winning ticket), but I will (in the future at some point) be purchasing and building an aluminum headed turbo 200, so a basic turbo kit, header, oil lines (with optional bonnet, i might go efi..) would be a nice thing to have.

the ability to at least modify it for serveral chassis would be nice too, though I know that can be hard. Keep chugging Mike, and I hope your getting enough orders to keep things rolling.

 

[AzCoupe]

I've done quite a bit of reseach on both, cast and steel. A cast header will handle the heat better, won't crack if its designed properly, will last much longer, and will be cheaper in the long run. The key is to hire a company with plenty of experience casting turbo headers. I've talked with such a company and have a bid, however it takes a confirmed order of 200 pieces to move forward. Unfortunately, with the economy being what it is, and slow sales, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

 

[hasa68mustang]

I've done quite a bit of reseach on both, cast and steel. A cast header will handle the heat better, won't crack if its designed properly, will last much longer, and will be cheaper in the long run. The key is to hire a company with plenty of experience casting turbo headers. I've talked with such a company and have a bid, however it takes a confirmed order of 200 pieces to move forward. Unfortunately, with the economy being what it is, and slow sales, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

woah 200 manifolds.... lol like thats gonna happen anytime soon.