Yet Another "Which Cam"

nickstewartroc

Well-known member
Sorry about having yet another, which cam for my engine post! I just can't seem to find exactly what I need to be looking for in a cam. My setup is a 67' 200, 78' 250 head hopefully with the 2bbl conversion soon..., and its a daily driver that'd like a little more power from a cam. I'm confused as to whether I should go with a 264/264 or a 264/274 and then the whole -110 or -112 etc. So can you guys give me a hand with this? Thanks!
Nick
 
Manual or automatic transmission?
112° for an auto, 110° for a manual.
I went for the dual pattern, heck why not?
Until you port the head and install larger valves you won't see as much as possible from the cam upgrade.
 
264I/274E @ 112 L/C would be my selection. If you want the curb idle smoother then 264/264 @ 112 L/C.

If you plan to install headers in the future then use the 274E. Bill
 
I'll post my opinion on the 264/274 110*

I bet the 112 will be smoother, but I can't get the Idle to be stable with the AC (compressor), i set the idle to 1200 for it to bring down the idle to 800, anything lower than 800 and it stalls way too easily. I can set idle to 650 but it's too weak to run the AC, so it's my winter setting. it's not very 'user friendly' in terms of idle, In my book it goes close to the wild side. (i consider 290+ cams to be the exotic/nuts side) although food for thought, a smaller carb will help idle quality AND an Idle kick-up silenoid for the AC everything would be very nice.

If I were to get anther cam, IMO I would go for the 264 single grind. 112 mainly for the smoother idle and higher vac than the dual grind will give. I'm running with a header .

also, remember more duration the higher the power band, do you pass cars @ 2000 rpm or 3000+ rpm most of the time, if lower passing power then go for the single grind, if higher and you like to make the engine sing everywhere, go for the dual drind.

one last thing to think about, with the dual grind you're safe to run a very high compression, as it 'tricks' the engine, you can safely run 10:1 CR on 91 oct with the 264/274 112 cam and you will have 'A LOT' of top end and decent bottom. but for cheaper pump gas, a 9.5 CR with the single grind will yeild more low end torque.

I'll think of more but these are my opinions and somethings to think about, if any of the more experienced want's to correct me please go ahead.
 
I'll say this again , If its an automatic and you choose not to put in a higher stall converter go VERY MILD , or it will kill what little low end torque a 200 makes , remember any cam that adds more overlap and you dont increase the static compression ratio /and or add a looser converter , the usable rpm range goes up ,at the loss of low end , too many times we think V-8 specs , when you have only 3/4 the cubes of most v-8's , so think in the same terms , or cry the blues , My car stalls when I put it in gear , , or I have to have my idle at 1200 so it dosen't stall ,a cam without all the other things is a Dog , you have been warned
 
With a properly set up distributor & using manifold vacuum for the vacuum advance you should no problem with the dual pattern camshaft.
20 degrees centrifigul + 16 degrees initial will get you in the ballpark.
Remember there are several vacuum advance cans with different total advances & when the vacuum control is set with a hex wrench by someone with proper knowledge your curb idle will be fine even with the 274E with the 112 L/C.
Make sure you get valve springs with at least 80# on the seat pressure.
If you want a smoother idle check out the isky 262 or a mild comp cam.
Stay away from the 260 comp cause its an antiquated design. Bill
 
FalconSedanDelivery":1p9dgrsr said:
I have to have my idle at 1200 so it dosen't stall
yes, becuase when th AC kicks on it bumps it down to 800 rpm, other wise it can run @ 650 nice and choppy. it's just my preference
 
MPGmustang":3izaebwi said:
FalconSedanDelivery":3izaebwi said:
I have to have my idle at 1200 so it dosen't stall
yes, becuase when th AC kicks on it bumps it down to 800 rpm, other wise it can run @ 650 nice and choppy. it's just my preference
That was meant for an AUTOMATIC equipped combo, I realize , a Stick can get away with it
 
I find a lumpy 800rpm to be the lower usable rpm idle with this cam, in gear foot on the brake.
Idles at 1000rpm in neutral when warm.
Mine is advanced 2° and I have a modified converter @2200rpm.
It's a really great top-end cam, lots of power over 3000rpm.
 
Lower breathing, lower cfm heads are less likely to have high cam duration low to mid range torque loss problems than higher flow heads.

I know its prudent to under cam, and follow CI advice. However, a too low stall converter problem causing idle and off idle problems is easy fixed with a 300 to 500 dollar torque converter upgrade if it ever happens, and our sixes have four really important factors which avert low speed torque loss.

In all cases, I'm sure we therefore tend to be too conservative.

Due to

1) small porting,
2)the poor exhast flow,
3)the tendancy for all of us to worry about how a 264/274 will deal with a c4'S stock low stall ratio (always factory rated at 1650 rpm by Ford),
4)the 200 and 250 is a quasi Pontiac 455/Chev 400/Chev 396 style stump puller 1.5:1 rod ratio engine which really drags the peak rpms down and keeps the low rpm air speeds up

These four things I'm sure make it impossibly hard to screw up low speed torque on a 200 and 250 engine.

Based on what I've experienced with a 1.65:1 rod ratio 280 degree cam 3.3 liter 1-bbl engine (9 port Holden 202, 215 degrees duration at 50 thou on both intake and exhast, headers, but no other mods but cam, 8.8:1 compression, BW wide ratio 5-speed, 3.9:1, 2700 pound) and my old 1.5:1 rod ratio 4.1 2-bbl Holley 500 engined Falcon (252 degree Heatseaker cam, headers, 3-stage auto, 9.65:1 compression, 2.77:1, 1650 stal, 3000 pound), i'd say a log 200 or 250 needs a cam of at least 215 degrees at 50 thou to do anything. At lash figures vary so much, but I'd not even consider a 260 degree at lash cam as a valid swap based on the time consumed doing the swap verses the overall results through the rev range.

Most cases, compression ratio is going to go up over 8.5:1, with even a later 62 cc cylinder log head, as most people have a log head shaved. Most times, we go for better carburation, most times extractors/headers or better exhast, most times electronic ignition, most times, a better manual or a rebuilt C4.

I know it's dead easy to over cam a car, but that fourth factor with our little sixes is they always come with a stump puller 1.5:1 rod ratio engine which really drags the peak rpms down and keeps the low rpm air speeds up. You don't end up with a loose torque car like you do with, say a 289, 302 or 351 when you go from a 256 degree at lash cam to a 280 degree cam. These engines never got L/R (Lenght of Rod to stroke ratios ) of less than 1.65:1, and were always higly responsive to cam changes

If a heavy 1-bbl 3.3/200 car can cope with a 280 degree at lash, 215 degree at 50 thou cam. And a higher flow cross flow 2-bbl or EFI 4.1/250 can take a 280/215 cam with 8.7:1 compression, then I don't think a poor flowing log head will have any issues. Generally, low end torque loss would be accentuated with bigger port 2V and CI heads, where over camming would show a low speed torque loss. Due to the crappy rod ratio, even a Classic In lines head with 8:1 compression, stock exhast on with a 500 Holley 2-bbl and a 3.3 engine would propably take a 264/274 cam, and make it work from off idle to red line.

Only issue I've ever heard is that when you go to bigger Holley 2-bbl carbs and bigger than 215 at 50 thou cams with stock transmissions, you have to be very carefull not to go too high with duration, or else you get fuel standoff/carb spit back/reversion. The factory 1971-1974 250 cube 2v engines had 1.65" diameter ports, bigger than any 200/250 combo, and with a 280/215 at 50thou cam, 500 cfm 2-bbl 4412 Holley and stock C4, you can get problems with off idle torque. Well known problem. Due to mixture motion and the work done with the latter alloy CI head, it would be unlikely tohappen with a C1 HEAD with the same combination.
 
Ive never commented on your posts before , BUT this time I am , your over the top math /theories make me laugh , I don't care what the rod ratio is ( the customer / poster is pretty much stuck with it ) picking too big a cam for a small motor is VERY COMMON, I live in the real world, where ( if I haven't done it I don't post about it ) I don't rehash Magazine articles , I don't write about back when ( if I was 4 back then ) I post on a few forums , and unfortunately this one has the most tire kicking / dreamers , so called contributors than any Ive seen on the net , That fact makes me sad and sometimes frustrated at why, just because someone was originally around when the board was made somehow makes them an expert. or I guess they are friends of the Forums owner , I am more concerned with FACTS , and sometimes they fly in the face of what some would like. But fact is still just that , you put almost any over stock cam in a automatic equipped ( USA BUILT ) 170-250 Ford 6 and leave it alone , EXCEPT for the cam change and it WILL BE A DOG / Disappointment,-- Rod ratios to Hell , most newbies on here are first time owners of old Iron, have little money and big dreams ( I was there once ) lets not confuse them with numbers that have little or no meaning to the question posted.
 
Dean has some very good information on the theory side, but in the real world experience on combinations is paramount.
A 250 engine can use a different camshaft than a 200 just because the long stroke will cover the loss of low end torque of a 200.
In this situation a builder needs to get the cranking compression to at least 175# for the recommended cams to be practicable.
If you want power don,t even be concerned with running premium grade fuel. You want power get your wallet out and get the compression to over 10-1 then the low end torque with proper camshaft specs & the correct distributor advance settings will reap benifits.
You want to run 87 octane then stick with stock camshaft specs and accept the loss of HP & torque.
I own a sun distributor machine & an innovate A/F wideband so i'm not guessing.
I believe thats what Faron is saying. Bill
 
...get the cranking compression to at least 175# for the recommended cams to be practicable.
...with proper camshaft specs & the correct distributor advance settings will reap benifits.
You want to run 87 octane then stick with stock camshaft specs and accept the loss of HP & torque.

OK, goin to school here. Really gotta stay with my systemic thinking. A lill less inscrutable to me now, still a long way from deep automotive understanding tho. Think I'll stick around till I know the right Qs to ask..
Thanks.
 
My .02 (Nick, you should have almost a buck by now).

Go with the smaller cam, 112 lobe centers. Mill that head to keep the CR to about 9:1 and not too much more.

Realistically, I think you could even keep a stock cam and pick up 15-20 hp with a good porting job and headers. There's more power to be had in better airflow than there is between either of those cam choices, so I'd pick the cam that would produce the most stable idle, highest vacuum, and would work best with the rest of the drivetrain you have. You'll be much happier in the traffic we have around Orlando.
 
MustangSix":3r7oxfws said:
My .02 (Nick, you should have almost a buck by now).

Go with the smaller cam, 112 lobe centers. Mill that head to keep the CR to about 9:1 and not too much more.

Realistically, I think you could even keep a stock cam and pick up 15-20 hp with a good porting job and headers. There's more power to be had in better airflow than there is between either of those cam choices, so I'd pick the cam that would produce the most stable idle, highest vacuum, and would work best with the rest of the drivetrain you have. You'll be much happier in the traffic we have around Orlando.

x2 :thumbup:

264/264 112 .450, it's what I think you'll really like in your daily driver.
 
What ever camshaft you purchase, make sure you get the proper valve springs for that camshaft.
Don't let the valve springs be your weak link.
More power to you. Bill
 
"...valve springs..."
OK here's some from Mississippi for the 250:

Beehive design w/keepers & retainers

SPRING SPECS:
Seated pressures
80lbs.@1.650"
90lbs.@1.620"
96lbs.@1.600"
Open pressures
188lbs.@1.300"
197lbs.@1.270"
209lbs.@1.240"
218lbs.@1.210"
228lbs.@1.180"
239lbs.@1.150"
251lbs.@1.120"
262lbs.@1.090"
276lbs.@1.060:
Coil bind
1.020"

Not sure on hight, may B "coil bind" means diameter...
 
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