Questions about conversions 1V to 2V

hi,

i started today to mount the 2V holley 500CFM on my 1969 ford 250cui.
But i have allot of problems en ill hope u can help me plz....

problem 1 the adaptor is to high and i cant make him lower because he rest already on the chrome...
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee3 ... f8e6bb.jpg

problem 2 whole the setup is to high so i cant close my hood
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee3 ... 8bcfc6.jpg
problem 2 the adapter only fit on this en not on my intake...
http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee3 ... 6efa14.jpg


ant are there people here with pics from an mounted 2V carb holley how it looks and positioned ?

Thnx for the help !

ken

I think the 250 is too tall to use with an adapter.
That is why many here will mill the head and mount the 2bbl directly on it.

I'll use metrics in mm's. Hope my English and descriptions are good enough to convey the answers.

Ford America most likely axed the proposed 1969 introduction of the 2V version of the 250 because of the hood clearance issue. The Australian 1971 M code 170 hp 250 2V had a trick ultrathin 39 mm tall air cleaner and a Stromberg WW 2bbl carb, which is a short deck a Rochester 2CG like carb which was very short but still flowed 300 cfm.

This setup worked really well in the 1971 to 1976 250 Falcons, but it was combined with the direct mount 250 2V cylinder head. The US 250 has a deck height of 9.469" (240,51 mm)tall , the Aussie 250 its 9.38" (238,25 mm), but either way, its either 1.577 to 1.666 inches taller than the garden variety 200 3.3 engine. 40,06 to 42,31 mm's is a lot of thickness to recover.

However, the Rochester 2CG is a little less tall, and if you cut the air horn off a 2300 series #7448 350c fm or #4412 500 cfm Holley 2-bbl, you can loose 35 to 46mm, and bring the total height down to less than 90 mm if you can drop the carb practically on to the stock tin rocker cover.

Look at powerbands 250 engine Tripower with 350 cfm 2-bbl is in a Comete, basically an early round body Falcon...the engine its very tall, yet he still gets hood clearance. On the lower hood late 60's Fords, and the only way to get hood clearance on a Mustang is to trim the carb air horn.



With any Holley 2-bbl air horn removal gives you back 35 to 46mm, and as I've said, it allows you to bring the total height from the rocker cover to the top of carb down to less than 90 mm if you can drop the carb practically on to the stock tin rocker cover.

On all carbs except the Rochester 2CG, the 1 and 2-bbl Holley/Autolite choke air horn is the problem, and there is never more than about 4.5 inches from the hood to the rocker cover.

Its impossible to make a down draft Holley 2-bbl with a functioning choke for cold weather to fit under the hood of a 1969 on X body Mustang, Falcon, Maverick or Granada unless you direct mount.

That's why the Classic Inlines head is so good, it solves the problem.

So does the 1957 to 1962 223/262 passenger car Holley 1904/Autolite 1101/1100 air cleaner

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69655&p=533863#p533863

CoupeBoy":2mrrhulc said:

Found another one you might want to look for..
Ford Cars with 223's used a low profile air cleaner that held the air filter off to the side (vertical, not horizontal)

View attachment 1

Click to expand...

But for us Log head types, the solution on a log head is actually very easy to do, although its taken me 10 years to nut it out. It uses one of my 6PT (Six Port Twinductor) intake manifolds, a follow on from my triple carb 6V intake developments. It uses two Rochester 2CG carbs or two Holley 350 or 500 cfm carbs. Discussion about it started when powerband asked some questions about making a 4-bbl version of the Tripower intakes last year. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68410&p=524489#p524489

In that, powerband covered off most of the issues, and I then started rolling out a 4-bbl carb to 3 bbl Tripower adaptor.

If the Holley 2-bbl is used, one has the air horn cut off like the second barrel of a 4150/4160/4180C 600 cfm carb. The secondary sits high with its air horn cut off, and the other sits lower operating as the primary carb. The stock 1.5 or 1.75" hole head is used, and four 29 mm holes are cut into the log head to feed the secondary carb. Primary runs like Powerbands 2-bbl center carb. The secondary 2-BBL runs like a Tripower Edelbrock or Offenhauser, where the two outer Holley 1904/1908/1940/Autolite 1100/1101 or Weber 34ICT/ICH kick in on 2/3rds throttle.

PM me if you want to be the first to use it.

The 6PT adaptor works on stock log heads, is a 4-bbl functioning carb with only one carb to set up at base idle, and can be vacuum secondary or mechanical secondary operated. Like the Offenhauser and Edelbrock tri-power, the flow to the out cylinders can be set up to operate simultaneously or staged, from any thing form to off idle to 60% throttle. So it runs off one 2-bbl carb, and then the second 2-bbl carb stages or tips in. Hence its a 4-bbl work-alike carb. Its modelled off the 4180C Mustang 5.0 4v carb, and works the same way.

The issue here for everyone contemplating a performance 250 is the lack of hood clearance to work with a tall deck 250 engine in a
1. Fox body (Fairmont, Mustang, Fox Mercury Capri, Cougar, Zephyr/Futura)
2. X body ( later low hood American Torino, Cougar, Mustang, Maverick, American Ford Granada, Mercury Monarch Lincoln Versailles, Aussie 1966-1998 XR/XT/XW/XY/XA/XB/XC/XD/XE/XF/XH Falcon).

The 6PR solves this by making the secondary Holley 2-bbl carb a non air horn carb. On the Rochester 2 jet, just using two Rochester 2CG carb's gives you the same result, you can keep the air horn and still have clearance.Either way, the secondary Holley 2-bbl looses 46 mm of height, and with careful fitting, it allows you to package it all up with stock emissions gear, rocker cover, log intake and a Fox body accelerator.

The Six Port Twinductor conveys the fuel air mix to the stock log head, and allows a progressive or simultaneous 494 to 709 cfm of carb air flow to feed the needs of any 250 engine. This compares with about 266 to 468 cfm of air flow from the Offy or Edelbrock tripower with 1904/1908/1940 Holley's or 1100/1101 Autolites or Weber 34 IC's. These carbs flow from as little as 88 cfm for the small versions to as much as 156 cfm at 1.5"Hg for the bigger ones, but the variance in flow is from 266 to 468 cfm all together. With as little as 468 cfm, you can make 181 to 220 hp with the right log head and Offy adaptor, and they are not direct mount kits like a 2-bbl direct mount kit is. The best direct mount I've seen, naturally aspirated, is Crosley's 205 flywheel hp 3.3 engine in his early Falcon.



The pictorial showing of the problems are documented below when I scale the photos, and the 6PT kit I offer is the solution. IMG 4567,68,71,74,75,76,78,79,81,82,and 83 to follow.

Hi there !
thnx for the quick reply its like a little bit chinees for me 8)
so quick said what can i do to make close my hood ?

greetz

ken

Ken Van Accolyen":zrd3zjum said:

Hi there !
thnx for the quick reply its like a little bit chinees for me 8)
so quick said what can i do to make close my hood ?

greetz

ken

Click to expand...

lol - yes never a simple answer from ol extasy..

if i read this correct :

problem 1- 2v carb adapter doesnt line up with bolt holes that are on log manifold- so need to use the original (first) spacer (with hose conenction on it) so it will bolt up
problem 2- hits rocker cover
problem 3 - too high to close bonnet(hood)

problem 2: if me would see if can 'chamfer'(grind at angle) the edge of the adaper where it hits the rocker cover and dent the rocker cover (careful!). will lose a bit of height

but will still be too high for bonnet(hood) to close.

so either work on low aircleaner or figure out how to lower carb further.


so :

i dont know this will definetly work - but this is a link to an australian made adapters - redline.

it allows you to lose the first spacer height.and turns the carb at an angle to miss the rocker cover.

if you see the pic it bolts to the log head bolts (direct on the log manifold) --which are at an angle .

need to check the spacing (distance) of the log manifold bolts ( across the log inlet hole) as may be differnce between early and late log heads and confirm this adpetr will fit.

need to confirm a 350 holley has the same bolt pattern as your 500 holley ( i think so-anybody ?)
probably available on the internet -ebay etc

inetrnet price $99 AUD(approx 90 USD)

and look for low height aircleaner

model 10-231


http://www.redlineauto.com.au/products/ ... =KBGNJGTG&

http://www.redlineauto.com.au/products? ... 11706&PG=2

Don't know if this is out of the question, you can make the hood scoop functional. May off set it this way. Or just find the largest scoop possible =D

then there's the lower-the-motor method (at the motor mounts and towers).
1) scoop
2) lower motor
3) direct mount carb
4) body lift (mostly for trucks due to handling changes)
5) air cleaner change
6) lower hight carb (but still 2V & the cfm you want)
7) the oz intake
seems like a coupla more...

Check the sig photo of Cobra Six. He has a Cobra air cleaner that has the filter cut down by half. That is to say, his air filter is only half as tall as stock. Then you could find a drop filter from a 250. I had one but it got mashed beyond use due to the action of certain people resident in my house at the time. They have since grown up.

haha,
",,,certain people resident in my house at the time. They have since grown up..."
New take on 'the pitter patter of lill feet'? Gotta luv em still, no? Never know
what they'll do next.

"...only half as tall as stock..."
So he cut a (air cleaner) housing AND the filter element in half (hight wise)?

"...find a drop filter from a 250..."
what yr/model would you order a "drop filter" for (I know "250")? Again that's just the 'element' I'm imagining.

Ken Van Accolyen":2xjcbk9w said:

problem 2 whole the setup is to high so i cant close my hood

Click to expand...

What engine mounts are you using?

Your entire engine does seem to sit high. Maybe not...It is difficult to tell in the close up pictures. Have you considered mounts from another auto, or custom made mounts to lower the engine?
Good luck

Chad,

I believe the 250 became available in the late 60s/early 70s for the Mustang. It uses a conventional size filter but the bottom plate is tented over the carb so the bottom of the cleaner can is about 2" below the top of the carb.

Yes, ol' CobraSix sliced a Cobra air cleaner sideways to make it half as tall.

As for the unknown malefactors who damaged the air cleaner, the girl joined the Navy and was a candidate for EOD, one joined the Army and served as a combat infantryman in Iraq, the third just fathered my first grandchild. It's hard to bellyache too much about a a damaged air cleaner by now.

JackFish":3vnjbnya said:

I think the 250 is too tall to use with an adapter.
That is why many here will mill the head and mount the 2bbl directly on it.

Click to expand...

Don't you mean ...Too tall to use with a stock hood. ?

80broncoman":1bjiafy9 said:

JackFish":1bjiafy9 said:

I think the 250 is too tall to use with an adapter.
That is why many here will mill the head and mount the 2bbl directly on it.

Click to expand...

Don't you mean ...Too tall to use with a stock hood. ?

Click to expand...

Hey, pick on someone yer own size...
Geeze, I was just trying to get the discussion going...

One thing I like about American forums is that they aren't bitchy, and are all about the information, listening, and interchanging the knowledge. It has its essence in the mother of democracy, the Athenian Greeks, where, according to my resource, all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas. I'd be sad if we weren't to entertain that concept, since its been a right fought over for centuries.

JackFish":3362fvb9 said:

I think the 250 is too tall to use with an adapter.
That is why many here will mill the head and mount the 2bbl directly on it.

Click to expand...

++++

If a 390 or 428 Cobra Jet can fit under the hood, then the 250 engine itself is too tall. Even a 240/300 is way too tall for the constraints of the engine bay. Each of the taller I6's, the 240 Big Six and the shallower 200 based 250, were just pickup truck engines from the pickup range, the Code 6 engines first resident engine bay was the Falcon based 1968 Fairlane Pickup and then the renamed Ranchero pickups. Its first shallow hood installation was actually a few 155 hp 68 Mustangs where it definitely got it as an option, then it became the regular L code option from 1969 to 1979, when it became the C code 4.1 for the last X shells, the barge like Benz W124 copy, the last of the Mercury Monarch/Ford Granada/Lincoln Versallies

There are two solutions.

1. One is simple, reduce carb height or adaptor height. The way to reduce carb height is easy...take off the Holley 2-bbl air horn. That's takes it down the height increase of the 250 over the 200.The Redline adaptors shown are shorter, and offer a partial solution if you run a thin air cleaner. Even the Aussie Falcons still have engine clearance problems.

2. The second solution is to move the 2-bbl carb out 4.82 inches (122.4mm) like the original 2V 250, and leave the air horn, but run a smaller diameter air cleaner with a shallow base.

My adaptor does both.

Put simply, any Ford 250 is a giant of an engine, the other standard US Early Bronco and F100 and F150 pickup six cylinder or 72 Maverick air cleaners don't help or fix the engine to hood clearance when you fit a 2-bbl Holley in the slender hood space of a 69er.





Ford internationally had one solution, and that was the detachable intake M code 1972 Aussie Falcon 2V 250 170 HP intake with a Rochester 2 jet style carb and a nice thin air cleaner with a 258mm by 39 mm thin air cleaner insert.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 8050_n.jpg

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 8877_n.jpg

It put the whole carb to the US passenger side, clear of the whole rocker cover. That means the stock carb is moved outwards to allow the whole air cleaner to drop down.



There are other set ups. This set up was used in the round Aussie Race Cortina x-flow in 1980, it was state of the art. It will fit the Mustang, with just enough clearance if you move the carb 4" out from the stock hole. See 13.26 to 13.30 minute shots of the 4.1 X flow with the earlier 250 1V non cross flow air cleaner in this link http://www.darcyf1.com/download.php?z=6450

Same issue when shoving these tall engines into Fox Mustangs/Capris and Fairmont Zephyr/T birds/Cougars and US Fox Granada. These are easily accommodated with the Parkwood60 method. He uses the GM Rochester 2CG, it fits on a simple block of alloy with a 1.75" hole and a Holley style 1.875 spacing hole with clearance for two big 1.6875" holes at a 1.875" spacing. The Rochester 2Jet and Holley 350/500 cfm carbs shared the same architecture as they were birthed out of the same 50's cars.

hi everybody !

thnx for the replys !!! what of carb adapter i best choose ?
the one of Classic inlines? http://www.classicinlines.com/proddetai ... -200-HCA-L

of the one from redline ?

greets

The Classic Inlines or Redline. The CI item has the best air flow and will fit best. The Redline one is great for the Aussie flat top logs and earlier small logs, and has been used for a long time with good results.


My 6PT is the only one that will work, because its designed to fit tight engine bays. The others don't work well in a 69 Mustang, one of the hardest nuts to crack in all of the X-shell Fords. Or a 250 Fox body Ford. The engine is too tall to preserve the 4.5inch (115 mm) space between the rocker and the top of the hood that's needed to get an air filter on the carb.

You need to look at the huge amount of work in development the original Ford Dearborn, Michigan and Broadmedows, Australia departments made, and also Mike B at Classic Inlines. His schematic shows just how the CI and 2v head is arranged to fix the hood clearance issues. You need to consider that an adaptor will mean the carb air horn will graze the bottom of the hood without an air cleaner, and you will then have to look at how you can grind bits off the carb to fit it in. You then have to look at air filtration, and your best bet is the remote style French air cleaner systems



The Classic Inlines and 2V head spaces the centreline of the carb out at 6.82 to 8.62 inches or 173.0 to 218.9 mm from the passenger side edge of the rocker cover. In all log heads, the stock 1-bbl carb is 2 inches or 50.8mm from the rocker. So its been moved outward 4.82 to 6.62", or 122.4 to 168.1 mm, to create 'drop down' space. FoMoCo did the thinking on this, and it was a brilliant solution to the need for more space.

The stock log 250 engine is just too tall to fit a 2-bbl Holley under the 69 Mustang hood unless either the air horn is trimmed 1.375 to 1.8125" (35 to 46 mm), or the carb is moved roughly 4" to 6.62" (101.6 to 168.1 mm) toward the passenger side as Ford Australia did in 1971. There isn't any other option, unless you use the aftermarket scoop like this 250 2v Cortina (Taunus TC) hood bulge, or my 6PT adaptor.



I can fit two 2-bbl carbs about the same 50.8 mm center to rocker cover distance, the inner one with its air horn removed, the outer with its choke still on. How it all blends together is the tricky part.

Put the scoop to use. I considered that one mine

"... scoop... I consider that one mine."

Good, easily done, however that's the only 1 I won't consider:
1) not stock looking result from a look see w/hood down,
2) the hood & windshield have 'loop and clip" so it folds down onto the the hood, i.e. no room 4 scoop.


And X - I see some of the gentelman from OZ get on a site just to see how they can turn as many folks as possible inta a "flamer"
entertainment vs research may B?
(too much BS already from a wife or co-workers here? wanna get away from that 4 awhile?)

Lidwig - is that what I've seen called a 'drop base', oh, ok, thanks for that one... I'm thinkin it's still got a high "starting point" due to the carb it sits on?

I'm hopin, whenever I can get goin on it, the RBS and 1 inch BL will do it . (also think the 2 inch suspension lift will clear the pan/frnt chunk/linkage, etc). -But - it IS a "truck"...

Chad, yes that is the 'drop base. It only rises about 3/4" above the top of the carb but the walls are like 3" tall. It sits down on the valve cover sorta.