Need advice after failed rebuild

All,
Having just found this forum, I'd first like to say how cool it is to see people actively working issues with old I6 engines. I am looking for advice, but expect to keep reading and learning after I get my issue resolved.

Here's the story. My dad bought a 1965 Mustang new, with 200 straight 6 and 4-spd tranny. I was 9 years old. I learned to drive in this car in 1971, and it was my daily driver until 1988. I then put it away for a while, and then did a complete teardown restoration a few years ago. I wanted a stronger engine than it started with, but resisted the common advice to "drop a 289 in it" because this I6 is the girl that got me around all these years. I'm not looking for a race car, just something quicker than I had.

The drivetrain mods include: Weber 2v carb with adapter plate, electronic ignition, performance cam, exhaust header with port divider, and dual exhaust. Most of these parts came from Clifford Performance, with the exception of the cam. My motor guy (I know enough to take an engine apart, but not to put one back together. ) suggested that he could save me money by getting a cam locally rather than from Clifford.

The problem is that the car doesn't have any torque. It runs, but with a very rough idle. I have to wind up the rpms and feather the clutch from a standing start or the engine dies. It isn't much better after you get moving. It certainly doesn't feel any stronger than what I remember. (It is quite a bit LOUDER though.) Larry at Clifford had me read the cam specs to him, and commented, "good thing it isn't an automatic, because I don't think it would generate enough vacuum to make an auto shift." And I have had people comment on the exhaust smell, which smells aromatic as though the gas is not completely burned. So the car just sits in the garage, no fun to drive.

So... I am willing to replace the cam if that will fix the problem. Looking for any opinions about that. If a new cam is in order, what is a good option? Clifford used to offer three, but now only one. And I see that Classic Inlines sells cams, but I have no idea which would be best for my application.

Back in the day Clifford was a top tuner of the sixes, I grew up near his shop and seen many Clifford equipped car roaming the streets and at the Drags. However since Jack passed away there have been many complaints about parts and service at Clifford. To better help you could you go into more detail about what other parts you have like the cam specs, was it degree'ed, was it set straight up advanced,etc. what is the rear gearing and tires size, what distributor are you using, and the goals for the car etc. But from what you have stated so far I would take a look at the carb first, what is its condition has it been rebuilt recently, etc. good luck

Howdy Rick:

And welcome to The Forum. I love the connection you have with this car. I hope we can help you assess your lack of low end torque. First, a few more questions. What is your compression ratio after the rebuild? Which Weber are you using? Had it run well before the rebuild? What is your initial ignition advance setting for your distributor? What do your spark plugs look like? I'm assuming that you've already checked for vacuum leaks but it might be a good idea to check again. I know that it's tedious, but it would be worthwhile to recheck all the basics again.

I'm guessing that the 4 speed is a Dagenham that is pretty low gears. What is the rear end ratio in your car?

Keep us posted on any progress.

Adios, David

Thanks for your interest guys. I can answer some of those questions, but not all.

1. The rear differential is stock.
2. The transmission is a Dagenham, as David suggested. I've never liked it much. 2nd gear is too close to 1st and too far from 3rd. I may contemplate swapping it out for a 5-spd if I can get the motor happy.
3. Tires are 217/70 R14.
4. Color is Poppy Red. (I know you didn't ask that. )
5. Carb is Weber 32/36 DGEV. It was installed brand new.
6. The engine was completely worn out (150,000 miles) when I pulled it apart. You could listen to the sound of it change as the parts warmed up. Top speed was about 60 mph, literally. So "how it ran before" probably is not relevant. Total mileage on the car is about 250,000.
7. I don't have the paperwork on the ignition. It fits down inside the original distributor cap.
8. A new component is a "Petrol King fuel saver" fuel pressure regulator.
9. The pistons are new, ".030 over". I don't know if they changed the compression. I still burn regular gas.
10. I believe the original crankshaft was re-used. At least, the invoice does not show a new one in the parts list. (It does show "polish crank" as a labor item.)
11. Spark plugs are new.
12. We have checked for vacuum leaks, and corrected one.
13. Camshaft: It came from CompCams in Memphis Tennessee. I have a document with lots of numbers
Gross Valve lift: .440 for intake and exhaust
Duration @ .006 tappet lift: 260 for intake and exhaust
Valve timing @ .006: Intake: Open 22 BTDC Close 57 ABDC
exhaust: Open 62 BBDC Close 17 ATDC
There are other specs labeled "For cam install @ 106.0". Are those useful too? I can probably post a photo of the cam sheet if I can dust off my Photobucket account.

Let me know your thoughts,
Rick

What head gasket was used and was the deck height measured before the rebuild/was the deck or head milled during the rebuild? Aftermarket head gaskets are thicker than the originals so you must compensate with either different pistons or milling material off the block. If you don't mill the block you can end up with an undesirably low compression ratio.

You're going to have a chat with the builder or pull the head and do some measuring. There's a chance your compression is down as other's have mentioned. While you're at it you may as well degree the cam and see if it was installed correctly. Doesn't sound like a monster cam, but like an "RV" type cam. I'd think that should be a decent cam for you. Maybe it's retarded?

Is the electronic ignition a Pertronix unit that was installed inside your original LOD distributor (ie the stock 1965 unit)? If it is then you have a mismatch of parts that is not going to work correctly. You will need to use a DuraSpark II or at least a 1968 point type distributor these have centrivical advance and a compatible vacuum advance that will work with the new Weber carb. That is a good mild cam that pulls from 1000 to 5000 RPM it should work well with your combo of parts. Was the cam degree'ed? X4 I also agree that if the head was not milled enough to compensate for the thicker new style head gasket you have lost some compression, so possibility of several items causing your troubles. Good luck

I run the comp 260 in my 200 tri power engine. As far as size goes it is a performance cam but a mild one and will work with a stock automatic transmission/converter or standard and works decent with my 3.20 gears. It has a slightly lope at idle but I still manage 14 inches of vacuum. Who ever this cam is too big is not giving good advice. The 106 ICL is the ideal cam timing for a slight bump in cranking compression and low end torque.....I idle at 800 in park and 600 to 650 in gear with no stalling. There is a slight trade off with this cam ....a little soft on the bottom end but a big punch in the mid to upper range. I have seen high 9 second 0 to 60 times and 115 mph top speed with the stock C4 and 3.20 gears. I would start with the obvious thing first like ignition timing/advance, cam timing and compression ratio. Cylinder pressure could be low as a result of using currently available composite head gaskets without milling the head to compansate for the added thickness compared to the now unavailable stock steel shim gasket and cam timing ICL which affects cranking compression.

Before I went turbo I did almost the same mods except a 500cfm Holley 2 barrel. The car was a DOG and a pain to drive and I nearly did the same as you, put it up and drive something else. Ended up being way way way rich in the end and I only really sorted that out AFTER doing the turbocharger setup. I often think about how nice that simple setup woulda been had I put a wideband on it and tuned the carb and timing a little better. Good luck to you either way you go, dont loose faith, it could be a good runner again with a little tweaking!

Matt

Everyone has given you excellent advice.
You want to get the cylinder head combustion chamber down to 50cc's. Then use a Victor head gasket which is close to .044" thick.
Next you need a distributor with centrifugal advance & an adjustable vacuum advance. Then you need it curved to match your engine combination.
Low cylinder pressure & the distributor are your two main concerns.
I can't help you with the Weber,but i can take care of your ignition problem.