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mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

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timson
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mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #1 by timson » Tue May 07, 2019 2:52 pm

First let me say that this forum is awesome. Every time I look at it, I learn something new. I´ve been lurking and reading for many years now as I contemplate my rebuild, and now it´s time to act, so I thought I´d run some questions by you all. Thanks for the great reads, both online and in the Handbook, and the expert advice with minimal guesswork.

What I have:
´61 Comet with 170ci (my first rebuild in 1990, now with 100k miles) and 2-speed “cometdrive” tranny, stock 7.25” rear, 14” rims, manual (drum) brakes/steering. Electric wipers (aftermarket). Pulled her out of a 10-year storage last year and drove 500 miles to my home to begin upgrades. Just installed a dual-reservoir master cylinder, wheel cylinders and flexlines, with more improvements to follow.
• In addition to the above, I pulled a 200 ci (with Holley 1946 carb), a C4 tranny, and all I thought I´d need (according to the Handbook) from a 1982 Zephyr. Rebuilt the C4 (with mild shift kit) and am now starting on the engine. I plan on dropping both in the car this fall, adjusting the drive shaft, carb, linkages, etc. as necessary and enjoying!

What I want:
• daily driver; strong, economical highway cruiser; occasional towing of motorcycle trailer; I live at 2000´, but want to be able to take it from sea-level to 10,000´ using widely available 87-89 octane gas.
• Future mods: front end work (spindles, steering column), 1” stabilizer, exhaust system, 2bbl carb, etc.

Most of my questions and doubts have been answered by reading the Handbook and this forum, so again, Cheers! With the rebuild, I will reuse the adjustable rockers and pushrods, oil pickup, sump, and exhaust manifold from the 170. My end CR goal is 9:1. Unless the machinist indicates a problem, I will reuse stock valves on the large log head, but will do the grindings and polishing as recommended. Once new pistons are in, I´ll measure/deck block to 0 clearance, then mill head towards 9:1 CR.

I just took the dismantled 200 engine to the machinist. So far, he´s informed me I´ll need a .040” overbore on the cylinders. More info to follow. According to what I´ve read here and in the Handbook, several things stick out, and I´d like some confirmation or input from you all on the following items:

1. pistons: Flat or dished?
a. Since I have to overbore my block by .040”, I thought flat pistons would be a good way to help recover some compression, but it seems most folks here advocate dished for turbulence/combustion reasons. That true? If so, I´ll order dished and get on with decking and milling accordingly.
2. recommended cam: 164/174 w 112 lobe separation?
a. Based on reading input on this forum dating back to 2003, considering my goal of a 9:1 CR, and a motor that is easy idling, with low-end power and passing/climbing ability at faster speeds, this cam seems to get the most likes. Yes?
b. Currently, it seems Matt at Vintage Inlines is out of this size of cam, offering the 164/164/112* cam. Will that work as well and what should I know about the difference? With the stock exhaust valves, should I make an effort to find the 164/174?
c. What is the difference between “oiling” vs “non-oiling” hydraulic lifters offered by Matt and which are best for my application?
3. parts: I’m waiting to hear from Matt at Vintage Inlines about some of the items I need, and I’m psyched that there is a vendor who specializes in our 6-bangers. Since he doesn´t offer everything, however, what other suppliers are good sources for the parts I’ll need?

Thanks for any help you can provide. In the meantime, I´ll continue exploring the forum...

Cheers,
tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #2 by wsa111 » Tue May 07, 2019 3:33 pm

Tim, welcome aboard.
I would go with the dished pistons to keep your compression close the 9-1. If you are using low octane fuel that would be a wise choice.
The 264-264-112LC is fine. That cam has a rough idle. I would call Jerry @ Schneider cams & get his recommendation for his camshafts.
What distributor are you planning run? I offer the DS11 & will recurve it for your combination.
See my listing in the small six for sale section. viewtopic.php?f=86&t=79537
If you are going to run the stock rocker arms you need non oiling lifters.
The only time you need oil through lifters if you are using the 1.65 Yella-terra rocker arms. Bill
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #3 by B RON CO » Tue May 07, 2019 4:09 pm

Hi, a couple of quick thoughts are go with a larger exhaust manifold, maybe the one from the 200, or find a manifold with a 2" outlet,
I used the dished pistons, the 200 comes with dished pistons.
Definitely degree your cam.
I needed the timing chain set from Vintage Inline to get my cam dialed in.
If you keep the adjustable rocker arm (good idea as long as it cleans up real good) you have to reuse your old push rods, or get the the cup style from Vintage Inline. Otherwise you will see the 200 has different push rods for non adjustable rockers with hydraulic lifters.
You can get a hydraulic lifters cam and lifters, and still use the adjustable rocker shaft, with the old push rods.
Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

1933 Ford Pickup - 59A Flathead V8
1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #4 by CZLN6 » Tue May 07, 2019 4:36 pm

HOwdy Back Tim:

Wow! what an exciting adventure. Thanks and glad to hear that The Handbook is useful to you. You are already getting good advice from Bill and Ron and I'd agree with them. Bill is the guy to see once you get your cam, carb and ignition in mind. He can recurve the advance curve on the '82 DuraSpark II distributor. On a related item, I don't have much use for the Holley 1946 carb. Maybe you'll have to get by with it for awhile but my experience it that they are not tuner friendly. Get to a two barrel asap.

On the cam I'd suggest less. Given your planned use description I'd go with a cam with less duration. When I was a kid the cam I'm talking about were called "Cheater" cams. They had more lift and about the same advertised duration as a stock cam. But the profile was way fatter. The valves opened faster and stayed open longer and had a fairly nice idle. Talk with the pros.

In addition to adding a new timing chain and gear set, I'd strongly reccommend that you dissassemble the rocker arm shaft and thoroughly clean the inside. Because of its age and years of setting it's likely that the oil on the inside has turned to sludge or worse.

You mentioned that you salvaged the exhaust manifold from the '62. I would not use it. Which exhaust manifold is on the '82. The '62 has a 1 3/4" outlet and is prone to cracking and warpage. If the '82 has a regular manifold, I'd use that until you can go to a header.

You listed a 1" front stabilizer bar for the future. Be ready for understeer, aka "push", unless you can find a small diameter sway bar for the rear or a smaller diameter bar for the front.

This has been fun just thinking through and remembering what I did, why and what I'd do differently. Thanks for sharing and keep us informed on your progress.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #5 by StarDiero75 » Wed May 08, 2019 12:39 am

If you're having the head reconditioned, why not put the larger 1.5 exhaust valves in it and reap in the benefits, especially if you plan on using headers. I'd look into what extra that'd cost man.
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200, dual friction diaphram 9" Modern Driveline clutch and billet flywheel all balanced, 1985 SVO WC T5 with front shift, 1966 2.8 Ford 8", Weber 32/26 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #6 by timson » Wed May 08, 2019 4:13 pm

Thanks for your responses, gents.

Bill, I´ll be talking to Jerry at Schneider´s a.s.a.p. about that cam setup. In the meantime, I plan on using the DSII I pulled from the Zephyr, which was running well when I took it apart. What is the purpose of recurving the distributor?

Ron, I ditched the 82 exhaust manifold because it had that big converter canister on it and it seemed most of you don´t use them. Sounds like a set of headers is in order then, as I´m using an early, small diameter manifold (not sure which year; got it from a junkyard as the original 62 warped...). I think I´d like to upgrade the whole exhaust system eventually, but I´d like to get the car with the new engine up and going before I do, just to simplify things a bit. Starting a freshly rebuild engine (i´ve done three) always gives me the shakes. But once it´s going, exhaust system, from headers to muffler, will be a priority.

David, thanks for making me rethink the cam choice; I´ll see what Jerry has to say. Regarding the handbook, I ordered my copy from you or Dennis over the phone nearly 20 years ago!

In keeping things simple for startup, I plan to rebuild the 1946 Holley, and hopefully convert it to a manual choke, as that´s what I use now with the 1908. Are there rebuild kits made to resist the ill effects of gas fortified with "corn squeezins"? Like the exhaust, however, I see a 2-barrel upgrade in my future as well...

timing set - check
clean rocker arm - check
reuse pushrods with 62 rockers - check
I meant 1-inch sway bar, as per "Handling Tip #2" (Schjeldahl 72).

StarDiero, good suggestion on the bigger exhaust valves. I´ll ask the machinist about that. Worth it though, right? I don´t mind investing money/time into a rock-solid engine, but I don´t want to waste it on unnecessary high-performance upgrades beyond my needs.

Thanks again, folks! Starting to order parts and getting gassed!

Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #7 by StarDiero75 » Wed May 08, 2019 4:25 pm

timson wrote:Thanks for your responses,

StarDiero, good suggestion on the bigger exhaust valves. I´ll ask the machinist about that. Worth it though, right? I don´t mind investing money/time into a rock-solid engine, but I don´t want to waste it on unnecessary high-performance upgrades beyond my needs.

Thanks again, folks! Starting to order parts and getting gassed!

Tim

From what I've heard it does make a difference, especially with headers. If you check out the milling for 2bbl thread you can see I'm getting my 1980 large log setup for a direct 2bbl. Once I'm done doing that, I'm sending it to the shop to be magnafluxed and have larger exhaust valves put in. I'm also looking at having it ported as much as possible. Mine is my daily, but i like to have a little extra power even if it costs a little more.

Good luck,
Ryan
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200, dual friction diaphram 9" Modern Driveline clutch and billet flywheel all balanced, 1985 SVO WC T5 with front shift, 1966 2.8 Ford 8", Weber 32/26 with VI adapter, CRT Performance HEI.
--1961 Studebaker Lark VI, OHV 170 l6 in the process of being resurrected. But it lives
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video.

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mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #8 by chad » Wed May 08, 2019 6:12 pm

"...the purpose of recurving..."
last detail, icing on the cake, the cherry on top, etc...
:nod:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #9 by CZLN6 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:41 am

Howdy Back Tim and All:

What is the casting code on the manifold you salvage to replace the cracked one? If it is a C5 or later casting, you will be all right- til it's time for the header. There is a piece on selecting and modifying a stock type manifold on page 37 of the latest edition of the handbook. C68 casting in building mine.

I put a 1" sway bar from a Granada on my Ranchero, but it also had stiffer, shorter front springs and the Shelby A arm relocation mod. It was too much for my situation and caused noticeable understeer. I sold the car before getting to a small rear sway bar to help balance the handling out. What is the diameter of the sway bar on your Comet now

You ask Bill about the benefits of the distributor recurve. While you are waiting for him to respond check out the piece in The Handbook on recurve. Pages 72 and 73 of the latest edition of The Handbook.

On the Holley #1946- I don't know if there is a manual choke kit for it. I've never seen one. The choke on this carb is not your typical Holley choke. Good luck on that one

On the exhaust valve upgrade- your choice, but you might want to add that to your conversation with Jerry on selecting the cam, and related issues. I would strongly reccommend that you have the intake and exhaust valves back cut when doing the valve job. It is an inexpensive addition and aids flow at both low and high valve lift.

I'm sure enjoying your adventure. I hope you are too. keep us posted on your thinking, questions and progress.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #10 by bmbm40 » Thu May 09, 2019 7:27 pm

You seem to be inclined to acquire all the parts and put the money in to get a very capable driver and get it all done right the first time. You have already rebuilt your c4 which is an economical auto trans for sure but for truly fabulous highway flying at relaxing low revs consider an AOD. The overdrive gear is a big benefit if you plan to spend time on the highway or freeway. Just something to consider. Overdrive gear changed my Bronco driving experience and was worth every penny. It's like a modern vehicle. I would not hesitate to hop in and get on the freeway to go somewhere but with the old non OD trans it was a different story. It was no fun driving along at 60 with the engine wound out. Your axle ratio will be a factor when planning this option.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

New guy? Get the Falcon Performance Handbook and Ford six high performance parts from https://vintageinlines.com

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #11 by timson » Fri May 10, 2019 12:21 pm

Update:

You convinced me, Ryan: I ordered the bigger exhaust valves as machinist said it wouldn´t take much to make the switch.

Chad and Bill, I´ll keep the recurving in mind. I think it´s one of those things to do once I get everything up and running. Maybe a winter´s tale, so to speak.

My exhaust manifold, alas David, has a casting number of C3DE, so it may be on borrowed time. It occurs to me, however, that I might go ahead and do the exhaust system (headers and 2" pipes) on the current, running engine. That way it´s done when I do the swap... Budget concerns, however, are keeping me from getting too deep too fast, and like the DSII recurving, could be relegated to a later date.

My stock sway setup uses the 5/8" bar. Since I don´t have any other suspension mods, do you still think the thicker bar would be too much? I´m used to the way she rolls sideways when cornering, but would like to stiffen her up a touch. I´ll look into lower-profile tires when it comes time for that. Other suggestions?

A conversation with Jerry at Schneiders was helpful, and I went with his recommendation, a milder cam for 1000-4000 rpm powerband with no need to advance the cam. I´ll start looking into that Holley 1946 choke modification when i have a chance...

Thanks again for the comments!

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #12 by gb500 » Fri May 10, 2019 6:30 pm

timson wrote:Update:

A conversation with Jerry at Schneiders was helpful, and I went with his recommendation, a milder cam for 1000-4000 rpm powerband with no need to advance the cam. !


what was his recommendation ?

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #13 by timson » Fri May 10, 2019 7:05 pm

Howdy, GB,

I went with the 248-56H, as detailed here: http://schneidercams.com/24856HfordI6hydraulic.aspx. I think my wishes to use 87 octane gas at mountain altitudes helped zero that one in.

Oh, and bmbm40, the AOD hadn´t even occurred to me since I have the C4. Sounds like a good idea, though, so I´ll keep that idea for the future as well.

Cheers,
Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #14 by chad » Fri May 10, 2019 8:21 pm

"...Chad and Bill, I´ll keep th..."
no, I'm more interested in the final drive w/the tow.
C4:
2.46 for 1st,
1.46 for 2nd,
1 for 3rd.
Reverse 2.18. .

15 inch tire?
hi 3,xx rear end?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #15 by CZLN6 » Sat May 11, 2019 2:12 am

Howdy Back Tim and All:

The C3 casting code on your replacement exhaust manifold is a nice upgrade over the '62. It has a 2" outlet and more material and gusseting to make it less prone to cracking. It can make do until you want to spring for the header. Add a 2" system to it and it is a good "get by". The 2" exhaust pipe and muffler will stay with the header, when..... I like spreading the cost of these upgrade out to save wallet shock.

The cam Jerry is recommending is a little weak for my tastes, but the old saying is, "too much cam, too many headaches". A stock 200 cam from the late 70s and 80s has 256 degrees of duration but with very lazy lift angles. They also only offer about .370" of lift. A modern, performance cam with 256 degrees of duration and .400" lift would really wake up any 200 and maintain a civilized idle with good vacuum, depending on lobe angle.

On the sway bar, I'd be inclined to go with the new, low profile tires and wheel upgrade first, install polygraphite swaybar bushing and grommets (Probably need them anyway) them assess the cars handling characteristics. I seem to recall that Comets, as they upscaled (station wagons and convertibles, went to larger diameter sway bars. You might way to do some research to see what other bolt-on options you have with sway bars. A 3/4" or 7/8" might be a better match. Too big a sway bar is just as bad for the handling as to small or not at all. Also along that line, does your Comet have a "Belly Bar", a bar that bolt the right and left bottom of the suspension together?

Good going Tim. Keep us posted on your progress.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #16 by gb500 » Sun May 12, 2019 7:44 am

timson wrote:Howdy, GB,

I went with the 248-56H, as detailed here: http://schneidercams.com/24856HfordI6hydraulic.aspx.


Thanks

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #17 by timson » Sun May 12, 2019 7:41 pm

Hi Chad,

I´m not really sure what I have for the rear end ratio. The door tab on the 61 says 5, which would indicate a 3.50:1 ratio, but I remember swapping the rear end out of my '62, which had a 3 speed manual, because some of the leaf springs on the 61 were broken. No idea what I have in that case. I did upgrade to 14" rims with 4 bolts, so that helps. I´ve always regretted getting rid of that manual...

Great news on the manifold, David! It´s been so long since I replaced it, I forgot about that. I imagine I was focused on the choke more at the time, since the new manifold didn´t have the little hole for the heat riser tube, so I had to set up the manual choke. You may have guessed: the current exhaust pipe is 1-3/4" and I used a flat gasket when I hooked it up. Probably not the best setup. So, it looks like a new pipe might be in store until I splurge for the headers and 2bb carb!

If that´s the old saying, then I think I´ll be just fine with the mild cam and without headaches. What with a fresh, bigger engine, a three speed transmission with a shift kit, and a bigger exhaust, well, I´m expecting a whole different car. I´ll look further into those suspension upgrades you mentioned, particularly the swaybar linkages since that sounds simple. There is a large, about 2" diameter bar running laterally under the engine and attaching to the same bolts as the engine mounts, to the rear of the shock tower bulge. Is this the "belly bar"? Is that a good thing?

Finally, I just happened to see it mentioned that the AOD won´t work on high-mount starter setups, of which mine is one. Is that right?

Oops, another question: I had to get a 2-groove damper because of the 4 bolt arrangement to attach it to the crank. Will that still work with the short water pump needed to clear the radiator?

Thanks again for the comments and ideas!
Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #18 by Econoline » Sun May 12, 2019 9:29 pm

I think the assumption was that the 82 engine from the zephyr was a low mount block.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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finding final drive ratio (don't junk the ex manif)

Post #19 by chad » Mon May 13, 2019 12:48 am

"...No idea what I have in that case. ..."
chalk line or dot on drive shaft, rear wheels in the air, rotate the tire'n count # of revolutions of shaft compaired to tire, this = ratio. Ie 3.5 X for 1 of the tire = 3.5 ratio. (count 1/4s too as they mean .25, near full = .90, etc).

That'n tire sz, tranny get U closer to an answ.

"...ditched the 82 exhaust manifold because it had that big converter canister on it... Sounds like a set of headers is in order then..."
some C the "football' as a header itself.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #20 by CZLN6 » Mon May 13, 2019 11:17 am

Howdy Back Tim and all:

Good news on the exhaust manifold. The connection on the '63 and later is called a "Fire Wall" connecter. It seals much better than the earlier flat gasket style. IIWY I'd get a proper fire wall connector there when I had the 2" pipe system made up.

Chad mentioned using the '82 "Cat" style exhaust manifold but connecting it to a 2" pipe would take some serious welding and fabricating. And then, it ain't pretty and you get a short gain for a long reach- too much effort and money. Save and wait til you can spring for the header.

Good get on the belly bar, aka "G-brace". It is there to stabilize the suspension and to reinforce the weak front end of the unibody.

Adios, David
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http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #21 by bmbm40 » Mon May 13, 2019 7:38 pm

Yes I thought the 82 was a low mount.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

New guy? Get the Falcon Performance Handbook and Ford six high performance parts from https://vintageinlines.com

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #22 by timson » Tue May 21, 2019 9:09 pm

UPdate:

I´m still waiting for some of the parts to arrive and get to the machinist (cam, valves, etc.) and trying to get to the exhaust guy to price out a new 2" pipe in the meantime. Haven´t gotten my rear ratios yet, but will soon. I thought I was lucky to find the high-mount starter for some reason I can´t recall in the Handbook having to do with my ´61 bodystyle.

Meanwhile, Ryan, I´ve checked out your thread and others on the two-barrel carb upgrade and the reading has been as inspiring as overwhelming. Way too much info to digest in a sitting, but I´m trying to wrap my head around it all and seriously consider it, especially as the head is off. Questions (that I know are probably answered in the forum, but with so much info, sometimes specific answers are hard to filter out, so my apologies aforehand...):

    Are all the Weber 32/36 carbs basically the same, differing only in their choke system and maybe the linkage? Is there a certain model/year/setup that is required for my project or will any one work?
    Since the head is now off, I´m thinking now might be the time to machine it for the conversion if I go that way. If I chicken out (when it comes time to start-up, I don´t want to screw around too much with carb settings), will the bolt-on adapter that requires no machining still be a good improvement over the single-barrel? (I did remember to pull the throttle pedal and cable-linkage from the Zephyr).

Cheers!
Tim

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