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mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

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timson
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mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #1 by timson » Tue May 07, 2019 2:52 pm

First let me say that this forum is awesome. Every time I look at it, I learn something new. I´ve been lurking and reading for many years now as I contemplate my rebuild, and now it´s time to act, so I thought I´d run some questions by you all. Thanks for the great reads, both online and in the Handbook, and the expert advice with minimal guesswork.

What I have:
´61 Comet with 170ci (my first rebuild in 1990, now with 100k miles) and 2-speed “cometdrive” tranny, stock 7.25” rear, 14” rims, manual (drum) brakes/steering. Electric wipers (aftermarket). Pulled her out of a 10-year storage last year and drove 500 miles to my home to begin upgrades. Just installed a dual-reservoir master cylinder, wheel cylinders and flexlines, with more improvements to follow.
• In addition to the above, I pulled a 200 ci (with Holley 1946 carb), a C4 tranny, and all I thought I´d need (according to the Handbook) from a 1982 Zephyr. Rebuilt the C4 (with mild shift kit) and am now starting on the engine. I plan on dropping both in the car this fall, adjusting the drive shaft, carb, linkages, etc. as necessary and enjoying!

What I want:
• daily driver; strong, economical highway cruiser; occasional towing of motorcycle trailer; I live at 2000´, but want to be able to take it from sea-level to 10,000´ using widely available 87-89 octane gas.
• Future mods: front end work (spindles, steering column), 1” stabilizer, exhaust system, 2bbl carb, etc.

Most of my questions and doubts have been answered by reading the Handbook and this forum, so again, Cheers! With the rebuild, I will reuse the adjustable rockers and pushrods, oil pickup, sump, and exhaust manifold from the 170. My end CR goal is 9:1. Unless the machinist indicates a problem, I will reuse stock valves on the large log head, but will do the grindings and polishing as recommended. Once new pistons are in, I´ll measure/deck block to 0 clearance, then mill head towards 9:1 CR.

I just took the dismantled 200 engine to the machinist. So far, he´s informed me I´ll need a .040” overbore on the cylinders. More info to follow. According to what I´ve read here and in the Handbook, several things stick out, and I´d like some confirmation or input from you all on the following items:

1. pistons: Flat or dished?
a. Since I have to overbore my block by .040”, I thought flat pistons would be a good way to help recover some compression, but it seems most folks here advocate dished for turbulence/combustion reasons. That true? If so, I´ll order dished and get on with decking and milling accordingly.
2. recommended cam: 164/174 w 112 lobe separation?
a. Based on reading input on this forum dating back to 2003, considering my goal of a 9:1 CR, and a motor that is easy idling, with low-end power and passing/climbing ability at faster speeds, this cam seems to get the most likes. Yes?
b. Currently, it seems Matt at Vintage Inlines is out of this size of cam, offering the 164/164/112* cam. Will that work as well and what should I know about the difference? With the stock exhaust valves, should I make an effort to find the 164/174?
c. What is the difference between “oiling” vs “non-oiling” hydraulic lifters offered by Matt and which are best for my application?
3. parts: I’m waiting to hear from Matt at Vintage Inlines about some of the items I need, and I’m psyched that there is a vendor who specializes in our 6-bangers. Since he doesn´t offer everything, however, what other suppliers are good sources for the parts I’ll need?

Thanks for any help you can provide. In the meantime, I´ll continue exploring the forum...

Cheers,
tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #2 by wsa111 » Tue May 07, 2019 3:33 pm

Tim, welcome aboard.
I would go with the dished pistons to keep your compression close the 9-1. If you are using low octane fuel that would be a wise choice.
The 264-264-112LC is fine. That cam has a rough idle. I would call Jerry @ Schneider cams & get his recommendation for his camshafts.
What distributor are you planning run? I offer the DS11 & will recurve it for your combination.
See my listing in the small six for sale section. viewtopic.php?f=86&t=79537
If you are going to run the stock rocker arms you need non oiling lifters.
The only time you need oil through lifters if you are using the 1.65 Yella-terra rocker arms. Bill
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6425CL & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #3 by B RON CO » Tue May 07, 2019 4:09 pm

Hi, a couple of quick thoughts are go with a larger exhaust manifold, maybe the one from the 200, or find a manifold with a 2" outlet,
I used the dished pistons, the 200 comes with dished pistons.
Definitely degree your cam.
I needed the timing chain set from Vintage Inline to get my cam dialed in.
If you keep the adjustable rocker arm (good idea as long as it cleans up real good) you have to reuse your old push rods, or get the the cup style from Vintage Inline. Otherwise you will see the 200 has different push rods for non adjustable rockers with hydraulic lifters.
You can get a hydraulic lifters cam and lifters, and still use the adjustable rocker shaft, with the old push rods.
Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

1933 Ford Pickup - 59A Flathead V8
1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #4 by CZLN6 » Tue May 07, 2019 4:36 pm

HOwdy Back Tim:

Wow! what an exciting adventure. Thanks and glad to hear that The Handbook is useful to you. You are already getting good advice from Bill and Ron and I'd agree with them. Bill is the guy to see once you get your cam, carb and ignition in mind. He can recurve the advance curve on the '82 DuraSpark II distributor. On a related item, I don't have much use for the Holley 1946 carb. Maybe you'll have to get by with it for awhile but my experience it that they are not tuner friendly. Get to a two barrel asap.

On the cam I'd suggest less. Given your planned use description I'd go with a cam with less duration. When I was a kid the cam I'm talking about were called "Cheater" cams. They had more lift and about the same advertised duration as a stock cam. But the profile was way fatter. The valves opened faster and stayed open longer and had a fairly nice idle. Talk with the pros.

In addition to adding a new timing chain and gear set, I'd strongly reccommend that you dissassemble the rocker arm shaft and thoroughly clean the inside. Because of its age and years of setting it's likely that the oil on the inside has turned to sludge or worse.

You mentioned that you salvaged the exhaust manifold from the '62. I would not use it. Which exhaust manifold is on the '82. The '62 has a 1 3/4" outlet and is prone to cracking and warpage. If the '82 has a regular manifold, I'd use that until you can go to a header.

You listed a 1" front stabilizer bar for the future. Be ready for understeer, aka "push", unless you can find a small diameter sway bar for the rear or a smaller diameter bar for the front.

This has been fun just thinking through and remembering what I did, why and what I'd do differently. Thanks for sharing and keep us informed on your progress.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #5 by StarDiero75 » Wed May 08, 2019 12:39 am

If you're having the head reconditioned, why not put the larger 1.5 exhaust valves in it and reap in the benefits, especially if you plan on using headers. I'd look into what extra that'd cost man.
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200, dual friction diaphram 9" Modern Driveline clutch and billet flywheel all balanced, 1985 SVO WC T5 with front shift, 1966 2.8 Ford 8", 2V converted built 1980 head, Autolite 2100 1.08, Dual out VI headers, Custom curved DUI, 256H Schneider cam 2.5 degrees advanced with dual roller chain, 2" exhaust with H pipe and Flowmaster 40s
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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #6 by timson » Wed May 08, 2019 4:13 pm

Thanks for your responses, gents.

Bill, I´ll be talking to Jerry at Schneider´s a.s.a.p. about that cam setup. In the meantime, I plan on using the DSII I pulled from the Zephyr, which was running well when I took it apart. What is the purpose of recurving the distributor?

Ron, I ditched the 82 exhaust manifold because it had that big converter canister on it and it seemed most of you don´t use them. Sounds like a set of headers is in order then, as I´m using an early, small diameter manifold (not sure which year; got it from a junkyard as the original 62 warped...). I think I´d like to upgrade the whole exhaust system eventually, but I´d like to get the car with the new engine up and going before I do, just to simplify things a bit. Starting a freshly rebuild engine (i´ve done three) always gives me the shakes. But once it´s going, exhaust system, from headers to muffler, will be a priority.

David, thanks for making me rethink the cam choice; I´ll see what Jerry has to say. Regarding the handbook, I ordered my copy from you or Dennis over the phone nearly 20 years ago!

In keeping things simple for startup, I plan to rebuild the 1946 Holley, and hopefully convert it to a manual choke, as that´s what I use now with the 1908. Are there rebuild kits made to resist the ill effects of gas fortified with "corn squeezins"? Like the exhaust, however, I see a 2-barrel upgrade in my future as well...

timing set - check
clean rocker arm - check
reuse pushrods with 62 rockers - check
I meant 1-inch sway bar, as per "Handling Tip #2" (Schjeldahl 72).

StarDiero, good suggestion on the bigger exhaust valves. I´ll ask the machinist about that. Worth it though, right? I don´t mind investing money/time into a rock-solid engine, but I don´t want to waste it on unnecessary high-performance upgrades beyond my needs.

Thanks again, folks! Starting to order parts and getting gassed!

Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #7 by StarDiero75 » Wed May 08, 2019 4:25 pm

timson wrote:Thanks for your responses,

StarDiero, good suggestion on the bigger exhaust valves. I´ll ask the machinist about that. Worth it though, right? I don´t mind investing money/time into a rock-solid engine, but I don´t want to waste it on unnecessary high-performance upgrades beyond my needs.

Thanks again, folks! Starting to order parts and getting gassed!

Tim

From what I've heard it does make a difference, especially with headers. If you check out the milling for 2bbl thread you can see I'm getting my 1980 large log setup for a direct 2bbl. Once I'm done doing that, I'm sending it to the shop to be magnafluxed and have larger exhaust valves put in. I'm also looking at having it ported as much as possible. Mine is my daily, but i like to have a little extra power even if it costs a little more.

Good luck,
Ryan
--1965 Ranchero w/1966 200, dual friction diaphram 9" Modern Driveline clutch and billet flywheel all balanced, 1985 SVO WC T5 with front shift, 1966 2.8 Ford 8", 2V converted built 1980 head, Autolite 2100 1.08, Dual out VI headers, Custom curved DUI, 256H Schneider cam 2.5 degrees advanced with dual roller chain, 2" exhaust with H pipe and Flowmaster 40s
--Creator of the only Weber 32/36 conversion video

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mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #8 by chad » Wed May 08, 2019 6:12 pm

"...the purpose of recurving..."
last detail, icing on the cake, the cherry on top, etc...
:nod:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #9 by CZLN6 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:41 am

Howdy Back Tim and All:

What is the casting code on the manifold you salvage to replace the cracked one? If it is a C5 or later casting, you will be all right- til it's time for the header. There is a piece on selecting and modifying a stock type manifold on page 37 of the latest edition of the handbook. C68 casting in building mine.

I put a 1" sway bar from a Granada on my Ranchero, but it also had stiffer, shorter front springs and the Shelby A arm relocation mod. It was too much for my situation and caused noticeable understeer. I sold the car before getting to a small rear sway bar to help balance the handling out. What is the diameter of the sway bar on your Comet now

You ask Bill about the benefits of the distributor recurve. While you are waiting for him to respond check out the piece in The Handbook on recurve. Pages 72 and 73 of the latest edition of The Handbook.

On the Holley #1946- I don't know if there is a manual choke kit for it. I've never seen one. The choke on this carb is not your typical Holley choke. Good luck on that one

On the exhaust valve upgrade- your choice, but you might want to add that to your conversation with Jerry on selecting the cam, and related issues. I would strongly reccommend that you have the intake and exhaust valves back cut when doing the valve job. It is an inexpensive addition and aids flow at both low and high valve lift.

I'm sure enjoying your adventure. I hope you are too. keep us posted on your thinking, questions and progress.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #10 by bmbm40 » Thu May 09, 2019 7:27 pm

You seem to be inclined to acquire all the parts and put the money in to get a very capable driver and get it all done right the first time. You have already rebuilt your c4 which is an economical auto trans for sure but for truly fabulous highway flying at relaxing low revs consider an AOD. The overdrive gear is a big benefit if you plan to spend time on the highway or freeway. Just something to consider. Overdrive gear changed my Bronco driving experience and was worth every penny. It's like a modern vehicle. I would not hesitate to hop in and get on the freeway to go somewhere but with the old non OD trans it was a different story. It was no fun driving along at 60 with the engine wound out. Your axle ratio will be a factor when planning this option.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

New guy? Get the Falcon Performance Handbook and Ford six high performance parts from https://vintageinlines.com

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #11 by timson » Fri May 10, 2019 12:21 pm

Update:

You convinced me, Ryan: I ordered the bigger exhaust valves as machinist said it wouldn´t take much to make the switch.

Chad and Bill, I´ll keep the recurving in mind. I think it´s one of those things to do once I get everything up and running. Maybe a winter´s tale, so to speak.

My exhaust manifold, alas David, has a casting number of C3DE, so it may be on borrowed time. It occurs to me, however, that I might go ahead and do the exhaust system (headers and 2" pipes) on the current, running engine. That way it´s done when I do the swap... Budget concerns, however, are keeping me from getting too deep too fast, and like the DSII recurving, could be relegated to a later date.

My stock sway setup uses the 5/8" bar. Since I don´t have any other suspension mods, do you still think the thicker bar would be too much? I´m used to the way she rolls sideways when cornering, but would like to stiffen her up a touch. I´ll look into lower-profile tires when it comes time for that. Other suggestions?

A conversation with Jerry at Schneiders was helpful, and I went with his recommendation, a milder cam for 1000-4000 rpm powerband with no need to advance the cam. I´ll start looking into that Holley 1946 choke modification when i have a chance...

Thanks again for the comments!

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #12 by gb500 » Fri May 10, 2019 6:30 pm

timson wrote:Update:

A conversation with Jerry at Schneiders was helpful, and I went with his recommendation, a milder cam for 1000-4000 rpm powerband with no need to advance the cam. !


what was his recommendation ?

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #13 by timson » Fri May 10, 2019 7:05 pm

Howdy, GB,

I went with the 248-56H, as detailed here: http://schneidercams.com/24856HfordI6hydraulic.aspx. I think my wishes to use 87 octane gas at mountain altitudes helped zero that one in.

Oh, and bmbm40, the AOD hadn´t even occurred to me since I have the C4. Sounds like a good idea, though, so I´ll keep that idea for the future as well.

Cheers,
Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #14 by chad » Fri May 10, 2019 8:21 pm

"...Chad and Bill, I´ll keep th..."
no, I'm more interested in the final drive w/the tow.
C4:
2.46 for 1st,
1.46 for 2nd,
1 for 3rd.
Reverse 2.18. .

15 inch tire?
hi 3,xx rear end?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #15 by CZLN6 » Sat May 11, 2019 2:12 am

Howdy Back Tim and All:

The C3 casting code on your replacement exhaust manifold is a nice upgrade over the '62. It has a 2" outlet and more material and gusseting to make it less prone to cracking. It can make do until you want to spring for the header. Add a 2" system to it and it is a good "get by". The 2" exhaust pipe and muffler will stay with the header, when..... I like spreading the cost of these upgrade out to save wallet shock.

The cam Jerry is recommending is a little weak for my tastes, but the old saying is, "too much cam, too many headaches". A stock 200 cam from the late 70s and 80s has 256 degrees of duration but with very lazy lift angles. They also only offer about .370" of lift. A modern, performance cam with 256 degrees of duration and .400" lift would really wake up any 200 and maintain a civilized idle with good vacuum, depending on lobe angle.

On the sway bar, I'd be inclined to go with the new, low profile tires and wheel upgrade first, install polygraphite swaybar bushing and grommets (Probably need them anyway) them assess the cars handling characteristics. I seem to recall that Comets, as they upscaled (station wagons and convertibles, went to larger diameter sway bars. You might way to do some research to see what other bolt-on options you have with sway bars. A 3/4" or 7/8" might be a better match. Too big a sway bar is just as bad for the handling as to small or not at all. Also along that line, does your Comet have a "Belly Bar", a bar that bolt the right and left bottom of the suspension together?

Good going Tim. Keep us posted on your progress.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #16 by gb500 » Sun May 12, 2019 7:44 am

timson wrote:Howdy, GB,

I went with the 248-56H, as detailed here: http://schneidercams.com/24856HfordI6hydraulic.aspx.


Thanks

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #17 by timson » Sun May 12, 2019 7:41 pm

Hi Chad,

I´m not really sure what I have for the rear end ratio. The door tab on the 61 says 5, which would indicate a 3.50:1 ratio, but I remember swapping the rear end out of my '62, which had a 3 speed manual, because some of the leaf springs on the 61 were broken. No idea what I have in that case. I did upgrade to 14" rims with 4 bolts, so that helps. I´ve always regretted getting rid of that manual...

Great news on the manifold, David! It´s been so long since I replaced it, I forgot about that. I imagine I was focused on the choke more at the time, since the new manifold didn´t have the little hole for the heat riser tube, so I had to set up the manual choke. You may have guessed: the current exhaust pipe is 1-3/4" and I used a flat gasket when I hooked it up. Probably not the best setup. So, it looks like a new pipe might be in store until I splurge for the headers and 2bb carb!

If that´s the old saying, then I think I´ll be just fine with the mild cam and without headaches. What with a fresh, bigger engine, a three speed transmission with a shift kit, and a bigger exhaust, well, I´m expecting a whole different car. I´ll look further into those suspension upgrades you mentioned, particularly the swaybar linkages since that sounds simple. There is a large, about 2" diameter bar running laterally under the engine and attaching to the same bolts as the engine mounts, to the rear of the shock tower bulge. Is this the "belly bar"? Is that a good thing?

Finally, I just happened to see it mentioned that the AOD won´t work on high-mount starter setups, of which mine is one. Is that right?

Oops, another question: I had to get a 2-groove damper because of the 4 bolt arrangement to attach it to the crank. Will that still work with the short water pump needed to clear the radiator?

Thanks again for the comments and ideas!
Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #18 by Econoline » Sun May 12, 2019 9:29 pm

I think the assumption was that the 82 engine from the zephyr was a low mount block.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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finding final drive ratio (don't junk the ex manif)

Post #19 by chad » Mon May 13, 2019 12:48 am

"...No idea what I have in that case. ..."
chalk line or dot on drive shaft, rear wheels in the air, rotate the tire'n count # of revolutions of shaft compaired to tire, this = ratio. Ie 3.5 X for 1 of the tire = 3.5 ratio. (count 1/4s too as they mean .25, near full = .90, etc).

That'n tire sz, tranny get U closer to an answ.

"...ditched the 82 exhaust manifold because it had that big converter canister on it... Sounds like a set of headers is in order then..."
some C the "football' as a header itself.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #20 by CZLN6 » Mon May 13, 2019 11:17 am

Howdy Back Tim and all:

Good news on the exhaust manifold. The connection on the '63 and later is called a "Fire Wall" connecter. It seals much better than the earlier flat gasket style. IIWY I'd get a proper fire wall connector there when I had the 2" pipe system made up.

Chad mentioned using the '82 "Cat" style exhaust manifold but connecting it to a 2" pipe would take some serious welding and fabricating. And then, it ain't pretty and you get a short gain for a long reach- too much effort and money. Save and wait til you can spring for the header.

Good get on the belly bar, aka "G-brace". It is there to stabilize the suspension and to reinforce the weak front end of the unibody.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #21 by bmbm40 » Mon May 13, 2019 7:38 pm

Yes I thought the 82 was a low mount.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

New guy? Get the Falcon Performance Handbook and Ford six high performance parts from https://vintageinlines.com

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #22 by timson » Tue May 21, 2019 9:09 pm

UPdate:

I´m still waiting for some of the parts to arrive and get to the machinist (cam, valves, etc.) and trying to get to the exhaust guy to price out a new 2" pipe in the meantime. Haven´t gotten my rear ratios yet, but will soon. I thought I was lucky to find the high-mount starter for some reason I can´t recall in the Handbook having to do with my ´61 bodystyle.

Meanwhile, Ryan, I´ve checked out your thread and others on the two-barrel carb upgrade and the reading has been as inspiring as overwhelming. Way too much info to digest in a sitting, but I´m trying to wrap my head around it all and seriously consider it, especially as the head is off. Questions (that I know are probably answered in the forum, but with so much info, sometimes specific answers are hard to filter out, so my apologies aforehand...):

    Are all the Weber 32/36 carbs basically the same, differing only in their choke system and maybe the linkage? Is there a certain model/year/setup that is required for my project or will any one work?
    Since the head is now off, I´m thinking now might be the time to machine it for the conversion if I go that way. If I chicken out (when it comes time to start-up, I don´t want to screw around too much with carb settings), will the bolt-on adapter that requires no machining still be a good improvement over the single-barrel? (I did remember to pull the throttle pedal and cable-linkage from the Zephyr).

Cheers!
Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - more questions

Post #23 by timson » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:51 pm

It´s been several months, but my 200 rebuild and swap is finally making progress: the engine is nearly completed, and the old engine/tranny is out of the 61 Comet. As I get ready to put everything back into the car, I have questions, but I´m not sure if it´s best to ask them here or to start new threads. Moderator, let me know.

Here are a few of my questions:
1. regarding the oil passage for the hydraulic lifters: both ends should be blocked off, right? (a threaded plug at rear and a pressed one at front).
2. the rocker assy. from the 61 engine: the front-most shaft support has an extra doo-dad, possibly for oil drainage, that the 200 doesn´t. Should I use it or stick to the original supports?
3. the PCV setup: the rebuilt 200 will not have all the connections it had originally, which leaves me with several holes I´m not sure what to do with: two in the valve cover, two under the carb and one at the front of the intake manifold. My guess is to run a tube (with valve) from the VC to under the carb, run another (with valve) from the VC to the air cleaner, and to block off the other two. right?

I wanted to attach pics , but the "board quota" seems to be full...

Thanks for your comments and Happy New Year!
Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #24 by woodbutcher » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:26 am

:beer: Hi timson.Sounds like a fun build going on.I`ll saddle up along for the ride.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe,
Leo
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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #25 by wsa111 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:28 pm

Tim, go with this front rocker stand.
the rocker assy. from the 61 engine: the front-most shaft support has an extra doo-dad, possibly for oil drainage, that the 200 doesn´t. Should I use it or stick to the original supports?
That front rocker stand uses the drainage for oil to drip down in the lifter area between the 2nd & third lifters cause there is an orifice just above the distributor gear for additional lubrication. Bill wsa111
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6425CL & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #26 by timson » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:00 pm

Thanks, Bill!

I´ll go with the rocker assy from the 170 then, after cleaning it up and drilling the rockers. I was happy to see that it is in far better shape than the 200! Hopefully the shaft can be reused...

Cheers,
Tim

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mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #27 by chad » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:27 pm

timson wrote: Hopefully the shaft can be reused...

ck 2 C if the rocker slides or binds up on the shaft, any shinny circles all the way around. I hada take a lill emery paper 2 mine.
Cleaned out the inside (of the shaft, is an oil passage all along) w/long gun brush (been 6 yrs now)...
No ridge at the top of the piston bores...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #28 by timson » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:48 pm

Thank, Chad. Will do...

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #29 by Econoline » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:10 pm

It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #30 by timson » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:49 pm

A timely and useful post, Econoline! Thanks!

I was wondering about that exact manifold, as I discovered that the C3DE exhaust manifold i´ve been using (since replacing the cracked original years ago) has a 1.5"outlet! I´ll get the new one, then, and upgrade my pipes once the car is back up and running.

Related question: should I get the ramploks or simply use bolts with lock washers?

Cheers!
Tim

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mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #31 by chad » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:15 pm

I'd get studs
https://www.vintageinlines.com/exhaust
We shop 'our' folks (Matt owns VI) cuz they cater to us (give'n get's what community is all bout)
and the better gasket.
Some swear by the stainless due to the threads not rustin, ability to get off on easier later.

Matt also has the headers (shorties).
The C4 is a good choice (least parasitic of the autos, good after mrkt prts)
But I think the AOD beddah! We got the tech for a home made adaptor to ur motor too! Keep us informed abt ur interests. Count our the rear end to find it's ratio yet?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #32 by timson » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:43 pm

Thanks again, Chad.

I´m all for supporting "our" folk, and have already ordered several items from Matt. Now you´ve got me thinking again about headers... might stick with my original plan: keep the old manifold until car´s up n going, then spring on the exhaust system...

rear ratio, by the way, comes out to 3.2. What does it mean!? good for highway cruising?

The AOD setup sounds like it would have been perfect, but i think I´ll be happy with the C4. I do know that I´ll have to modify the old support for it, since the 61 won´t take the aftermarket one. I´ll get to that once it´s back in the car and while I´m getting the driveshaft cut to the right length...

By the way, during the rebuild I went ahead with the larger exhaust valves, a recurved dizzy from Bill, and the head conversion for the 2bbl Weber. I got a 32/36 DGV offa ebay, cleaned and jetted it (thanks to stardiero), and put it on the 170 to test it before I pulled the motor out - ran great! wish i´da done that years ago!

Cheers,
Tim

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mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #33 by chad » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:43 pm

sounds too late for the port divider? (headers in da future U say?)

"...comes out to 3.2. What does it mean!? ...
lower #s - better MPGs, higher can = more tq (don't 4get the whole 'final drive' formula: engine, tranny gear(s), rear, tire sz). There's
a nice on-line caculator or 3 we truckers use esp 4 off rd.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: finding final drive ratio (don't junk the ex manif)

Post #34 by drag-200stang » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:24 am

chad wrote:"...No idea what I have in that case. ..."
chalk line or dot on drive shaft, rear wheels in the air, rotate the tire'n count # of revolutions of shaft compaired to tire, this = ratio. Ie 3.5 X for 1 of the tire = 3.5 ratio. (count 1/4s too as they mean .25, near full = .90, etc).

That'n tire sz, tranny get U closer to an answ.

"...ditched the 82 exhaust manifold because it had that big converter canister on it... Sounds like a set of headers is in order then..."
some C the "football' as a header itself.

This will not work right with an open differential, because one of the tires can turn at different rates throwing the count off.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #35 by timson » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:03 pm

Thanks, Drag!

To get the ratio, I lifted the rear axle at the differential and turned the left rear tire twice, counting the turns on the u-joint. Is there a better way of finding the ratio?

Cheers,
Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #36 by drag-200stang » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:44 pm

timson wrote:Thanks, Drag!

To get the ratio, I lifted the rear axle at the differential and turned the left rear tire twice, counting the turns on the u-joint. Is there a better way of finding the ratio?

Cheers,
Tim

They say that the 2x one tire works as long as the other tire does not move but I have not proved it myself but I know if both tires are turning it won't be right if they do not turn even.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #37 by timson » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:18 pm

So I tried a different method: lifting only my left rear tire, I turned it 10 times, counting 16 revolutions of the diffy knuckle. Following the math on the video: 16 x 2/10=3.20. ¡Eureka!

I have 14" wheels also, so I may be in good shape. When I rebuilt the C4, I put in a shifter kit, just in case I need to tow a trailer with my extra car parts! I have no idea what to expect...

Cheers,
Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #38 by timson » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:29 pm

Wait. I just checked my math. 16x2/10 =3.80. Seems a bit high, doesn't it?

Thanks for the comments,
Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #39 by timson » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:37 pm

Sorry folks, long day and I did not study math.

3.20. came from a 62 comet with a three-on-da-tree...

Tim

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #40 by 62Cometman » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:01 pm

3.2 is likely right on that rear end, the factory 62 ratio in my car was 3.2 and it turn, with 215/70-14 inch tires, about 3k at 70mph in 3rd. That center section decided it had enough of me and tried to spit the holding pin out while going down the road so I "upgraded" to the 2.83 ratio from first gen mustang. It feels gutless off the line but cruises much better on the hwy now.


Which leads me to ask what do you want more? Better HWY driving or towing? If you are ok with the engine turning 3k down the road than stick with what you have as that motor will run all day at that speed with nary a complaint. The AOD is a good idea because you can use a lower rear gear and get great towing and with the overdrive you get good HWY too. Alternatively you could get a gear vendors add on overdrive rather pricey but a decent idea and a lot of older hot rodders love these units.

I feel like im raining on your parade today but felt as though I should add this.

Others can chime in if they feel otherwise but these cars, and the rear-ends they came with, weren't designed to tow. Their lack luster performance would only be worse hauling extra weight, id perhaps wait until the 6 hits stage 2 so to speak before towing with it, you'll want all the power you can get for assistance. Also possibly consider an 8 inch swap, much stouter rear with just as many options for ratio and you can possibly find one with 4 lug still that would bolt in with the right tire or wheel offset.

I wish you the best with the project and hope I haven't deterred you from getting it finish :beer:
Last edited by 62Cometman on Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1962 Mercury Comet 170 ci, Dagenham Trans, 2.83:1 7.25 rear.
She ain't fast but she's fun. 8)

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mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #41 by chad » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:37 pm

"...get a gear vendor..."
no longer manafactured?

Can't find a web site...

Used them in ol 4WD trucks (what model 4 lght car like ours)?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #42 by wsa111 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:22 pm

timson wrote:Thanks for your responses, gents.

Bill, I´ll be talking to Jerry at Schneider´s a.s.a.p. about that cam setup. In the meantime, I plan on using the DSII I pulled from the Zephyr, which was running well when I took it apart. What is the purpose of recurving the distributor?

Ron, I ditched the 82 exhaust manifold because it had that big converter canister on it and it seemed most of you don´t use them. Sounds like a set of headers is in order then, as I´m using an early, small diameter manifold (not sure which year; got it from a junkyard as the original 62 warped...). I think I´d like to upgrade the whole exhaust system eventually, but I´d like to get the car with the new engine up and going before I do, just to simplify things a bit. Starting a freshly rebuild engine (i´ve done three) always gives me the shakes. But once it´s going, exhaust system, from headers to muffler, will be a priority.

David, thanks for making me rethink the cam choice; I´ll see what Jerry has to say. Regarding the handbook, I ordered my copy from you or Dennis over the phone nearly 20 years ago!

In keeping things simple for startup, I plan to rebuild the 1946 Holley, and hopefully convert it to a manual choke, as that´s what I use now with the 1908. Are there rebuild kits made to resist the ill effects of gas fortified with "corn squeezins"? Like the exhaust, however, I see a 2-barrel upgrade in my future as well...

timing set - check
clean rocker arm - check
reuse pushrods with 62 rockers - check
I meant 1-inch sway bar, as per "Handling Tip #2" (Schjeldahl 72).

StarDiero, good suggestion on the bigger exhaust valves. I´ll ask the machinist about that. Worth it though, right? I don´t mind investing money/time into a rock-solid engine, but I don´t want to waste it on unnecessary high-performance upgrades beyond my needs.

Thanks again, folks! Starting to order parts and getting gassed!

Tim

Tim, the stock DS11 advance curve is not correct for even a mild performance engine.
When you are ready give me a shout & i will custom curve what you need after you have finalized your build. Bill wsa111
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6425CL & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #43 by 62Cometman » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:26 am

chad wrote:"...get a gear vendor..."
no longer manafactured?

Can't find a web site...

Used them in ol 4WD trucks (what model 4 lght car like ours)?


Not to hijack the thread but they are still made, in CA heres the website

https://www.gearvendors.com/index.html

They have a kit for the C4/C5/C6 trans as wells as many others.
1962 Mercury Comet 170 ci, Dagenham Trans, 2.83:1 7.25 rear.
She ain't fast but she's fun. 8)

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mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #44 by chad » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:55 pm

kouwell!
I went there after I posted that.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
left a msg 4 over as well as underdrives for my bronk.
May throw a post on "Bronco Busters".
Sorry~
"Now back 2 ur regularly scheduled programing":
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #45 by timson » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:40 pm

Thanks for the comments, 62Cometman and others! No raining on this parade as long as I get everything put back together right.

To answer your query about towing or cruising, I mostly want a good highway car. I´m in Kearney and make frequent trips to Denver and Des Moines, so I´m looking forward to getting the Comet back into I-80 traffic! I mentioned towing only because I may have occasional need to tow a motorcycle trailer or a 10´boat, but that´s a minor concern. (I ride/navigate when I can). I wish I had known about the AOD earlier, but I got the C4/200ci combo some 12 years ago now, so that´s what I´ll be using initially. Upgrades like an 8" rear end, steering, and cruise control will come, er, down the road.

Over the last 30 years, my ´61 with the early 170 (small intake, small exhaust) and the 2-speed "Cometdrive" has taken me through Colorado forest roads, down to Mexico, up the West coast, through Death Valley, across to Chicago and everywhere in between. Nothin but smiles here, and I know my upgrades will just add to them.

Speaking of upgrades, I´ll try to add this recap to my signature: ´61 Comet Tudor,´81 200 (high mount, bored .040 over), C4, 7.25" rear (3.20:1), 14" wheels, Weber 32/36 conversion, Schneider 248-56H cam, 1.5" exhaust valves, 8.5:1 CR (i think), adj. rockers, 2" exhaust, recurved DSII (Thanks Bill!).

Right now, I´m drilling bigger oil holes in the rockers and cleaning the engine bay for a fresh coat of black satin before dropping the engine/tranny combo back in.

And I´m researching the following upcoming questions: alternator conversion (will my 100 amp be ok in the ´61?), driveshaft u-joints (will different sizes be a huge problem?), PCV setup (just block the EGR?), tranny support modification, etc. Sorting through the scads of info on this forum is as addictive as it is overwhelming, so feel free to give me a quick answer if you´d like! :P

Again, cheers! :beer:

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #46 by bmbm40 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:30 pm

You have done some traveling in that Comet! I like that, they should be driven often in my opinion. Going from the 170/2 speed to your new hopped up 200 and c4 will be a huge difference. Smile time when pushing on the gas pedal. With that much power you could just go with a highway friendly axle ratio, if available, and save the expense of od trans. It seems like you enjoy long trips and that relaxed highway cruising is very enjoyable.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

New guy? Get the Falcon Performance Handbook and Ford six high performance parts from https://vintageinlines.com

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #47 by 62Cometman » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:19 pm

timson wrote:Thanks for the comments, 62Cometman and others! No raining on this parade as long as I get everything put back together right.

To answer your query about towing or cruising, I mostly want a good highway car. I´m in Kearney and make frequent trips to Denver and Des Moines, so I´m looking forward to getting the Comet back into I-80 traffic! I mentioned towing only because I may have occasional need to tow a motorcycle trailer or a 10´boat, but that´s a minor concern. (I ride/navigate when I can). I wish I had known about the AOD earlier, but I got the C4/200ci combo some 12 years ago now, so that´s what I´ll be using initially. Upgrades like an 8" rear end, steering, and cruise control will come, er, down the road.

Over the last 30 years, my ´61 with the early 170 (small intake, small exhaust) and the 2-speed "Cometdrive" has taken me through Colorado forest roads, down to Mexico, up the West coast, through Death Valley, across to Chicago and everywhere in between. Nothin but smiles here, and I know my upgrades will just add to them.

Speaking of upgrades, I´ll try to add this recap to my signature: ´61 Comet Tudor,´81 200 (high mount, bored .040 over), C4, 7.25" rear (3.20:1), 14" wheels, Weber 32/36 conversion, Schneider 248-56H cam, 1.5" exhaust valves, 8.5:1 CR (i think), adj. rockers, 2" exhaust, recurved DSII (Thanks Bill!).

Right now, I´m drilling bigger oil holes in the rockers and cleaning the engine bay for a fresh coat of black satin before dropping the engine/tranny combo back in.

And I´m researching the following upcoming questions: alternator conversion (will my 100 amp be ok in the ´61?), driveshaft u-joints (will different sizes be a huge problem?), PCV setup (just block the EGR?), tranny support modification, etc. Sorting through the scads of info on this forum is as addictive as it is overwhelming, so feel free to give me a quick answer if you´d like! :P

Again, cheers! :beer:


Kearney as in Kearney,NE?

As for what youve done thus far i agree with bmbm you could get away with running a higher rear gear like a 2.83 especially with the c4. That rear with the dagenham trans thats in my comet loved interstate on ramp as i high the powerband in 3rd coming on and shifted into 4th just as i was about to merge. Your comet should have some even more pep in its step so i wouldn't be too worried about it at all for HWY cruising.
1962 Mercury Comet 170 ci, Dagenham Trans, 2.83:1 7.25 rear.
She ain't fast but she's fun. 8)

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Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #48 by timson » Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:09 pm

Just saw your post, 62Cometman. Yes, I am in Kearney NE, so feel free to let me know if you´re passing through. Would love to talk shop with you.

Meanwhile, do you have any recommendations for a good Nebraska junkyard full of inline Ford parts? Among a few sundries, I´m looking for a basic alternator bracket.

Cheers!
Tim

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alternator brackets (list thread this way for best response)

Post #49 by chad » Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:56 pm

I havea stash but move pretty slo.
Use email in my sig below.
Also car-part.com is bout the best I found...

http://www.car-part.com
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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62Cometman
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Location: Lincoln, NE

Re: mild rebuild of 200 - cam, lifters, piston questions

Post #50 by 62Cometman » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:28 am

The only good place ive checked out for classics is Shorty Watts place just south of wymore. Its called Watts Repair Salvage & Auto. Therese a handful of small six cars there and they are mostly untouched, there are 3 early comets IIRC and at least 1 falcon in case you needed any other parts, hes usually pretty reasonable about small parts the bigger stuff is kinda hit or miss.
1962 Mercury Comet 170 ci, Dagenham Trans, 2.83:1 7.25 rear.
She ain't fast but she's fun. 8)

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