Click Here -> Please Consider Making a PayPal Contribution to the FordSix Forum!
2019 Contributors:
NJwpod, 1strodeo, mightynorseman, maxtrux, 6d7coupe, broncr, Phase3, 68Flareside240, bmbm40, mustang6, WorldChampGramp, justintendo, BigBlue94, ags290, motorsickle1130, Rooster, ousooner919, ethanperry, rzcrisis, DoctorC, jamyers, Motorboy, fastpat, Silverback280, chad, drag-200stang, THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER, Jimmys61falcon, rjonah, Sooshi, Robert92867, Invectivus


PLEASE TEST ON http://dev.fordsix.com

<<<***PLEASE READ*** New Site Update >>>

200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Moderator: Mod Squad

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #1 by Georgia200 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:37 am

Im collecting parts for the swap and am a bit confused as to how the engine, C4 and starter come together.

Im not sure what C4 I have. I have a receipt from the PO that states that a reman C4 was installed by a local tranny shop. I crawled under the car and didnt see a tag anywhere on the transmission.

Lacking a tag, how do I determine what tranny I have?

I have a RF-D7DP-7976-AA bell. I think thats for 78-80 250 and 302, case fill.

Does this bell use a 157 or 164 tooth flexplate?

RockAuto lists both 157 tooth - 13.3" diameter flex plates and 164 tooth - 14.23 diameter flexplates for 250 sixes.

Im hoping to use the 164 tooth flexplate so I can use a 3.8 starter.

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9761
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #2 by bubba22349 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:36 am

Look for the ID tag mounted to the passenger side Servo cover. Generally if the C4 is a case fill then it uses a 157 tooth flex plate and if it's a Pan fill C4 (most used in pick up truck use and also some of the big Ford cars like the Galxie) these will all use the 164 tooth fex plate. Good luck :thumbup: :hmmm:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #3 by Georgia200 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:02 pm

Ive been online all day researching this.

My C4 is a case fill and Im guessing it is a 24 spline. I will not know for sure, until I pull it.

I gather my D7DP-7976-AA bell for a 157 tooth flex plate

Rock Auto has a 157 tooth zero balance flex plate for a 69 Mustang 250.

Orielys has a ProKing torque converter for a 69 Mustang 250 for $70 + $40 core.

I will also need a block plate and hardware.

Any idea where I can find the hardware sizes?

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #4 by chad » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:39 pm

"...Any idea where I can find the hardware sizes?..."
I all ways hit up Matt at vintage inlines dot com as he caters to us (wish to support him back).
He makes it easy as he knows these motors/vehicles.

U mention 2 box box auto retailers, autozone has the 'Help' section (pegboard, blow plastic green/yellow/red cards) full of them. :nod:
Gunna use a block plate? Got 1?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #5 by Georgia200 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:57 am

Not a lot of traffic here anymore. Are there fewer and fewer people building sixes as the years go by? Its been almost 40 years since a Falcon Six was in a new Ford.

Viperwolf1
Registered User
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:17 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #6 by Viperwolf1 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:50 am

D7DP-7976-AA is a 164 tooth type bell. You can't use a 157 tooth flexplate with it or the starter teeth won't mesh. Block plate size is dependent on tooth count also. Starter should work fine as all small block pattern automatic starters are interchangeable.

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

Y all the interest in these motors?

Post #7 by chad » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:15 am

"...fewer and fewer people building sixes as the years go by? Its been almost 40 years since a Falcon Six was in a new Ford."
viewforum.php?f=22
viewforum.php?f=51
viewforum.php?f=48
Barret Jackson et al
Millions of $ SEMA stang, other ford i6
last fall bronks ('66 -'77) hit #1 in sales at $
:nono:
I believe ur "no interest" is simply your belief and not actual fact. Yes there R few ppl in USA who have them (collectors age out'n die, metal rusts out & returns to the earth, etc but the earth is getting further frm the sun too).
BTW the figure is "24 yrs" (1996) not 40. fomoco went efi w/them too...

Them's fightin wrds ! Put up yer dukes ! :evil:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

chad jack-a-thread fuller

Post #8 by chad » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:39 am

perfect example - "Viper" (post #6 above) regesters his 1st post - has never been here B4 yet is well known thru out the bronk world
as a pretty good (oh, alright, moderately good) guy, one who messes w/the falcon motor very lill, but now appears here - the i6 site !
:thumbup:
Yo, Viperwolf:
W E L C O M E !!!
hope U enjoy ur stay !
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9761
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #9 by bubba22349 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:58 pm

Georgia200 wrote:Not a lot of traffic here anymore. Are there fewer and fewer people building sixes as the years go by? Its been almost 40 years since a Falcon Six was in a new Ford.


We do get lots of Visitor / Guest traffic and a few new members each week as these guests and occasionally an old member returns. Yes there maybe fewer and fewer people building six'es the supply of cars and small pickups may be limited now and lots of them are getting converted to V8's, as well unfortunately of so many that got crushed in the last decade during the "cash for clunkers" program. Personally I have been hunting for a project car and a six to build most that I see in my area are out of reach to me financially. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #10 by Georgia200 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:27 pm

The 82 Granada and 82 Mustang 83 Fairmont were the last 250/200s that Ford put in cars in the U.S. Thats 38/37 years ago.

Ive been picking up odds and ends as I find them, pretty unusual around here to find one in a JY.

The link shows that the D7DP-7976-AA bell is for a 157 tooth flexplate. Is that incorrect?

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/d ... ansmission

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9761
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #11 by bubba22349 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:15 pm

Georgia200 wrote:The 82 Granada and 82 Mustang 83 Fairmont were the last 250/200s that Ford put in cars in the U.S. Thats 38/37 years ago.

Ive been picking up odds and ends as I find them, pretty unusual around here to find one in a JY.

The link shows that the D7DP-7976-AA bell is for a 157 tooth flexplate. Is that incorrect?

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/d ... ansmission


Yes that's a long time ago, however because of their amazing durability many are still around. Yes that C4 bell would be for a 157 tooth flex plate, it should look like the one in the below link. This will fit your 250 block perfectly and bolt up to a case fill C4, did you also get the 6 bolt block plate that mounts behind it? Good luck :thumbup: :nod:

D7DP-7976-AA C4 Bell for a 6 Bolt Block mid 65 289, all 302's, and 250's and many others.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1977-82-Ford-M ... noapp=true
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #12 by Georgia200 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:25 pm

Yep, thats my bell, except that one is nicer than the one I have.

I didnt get the block plate. The 74 Comet 250 I bought didnt have them, the 250 short block didnt have them either, I was at the pull-a-part today and there were three Windsors in the whole yard, they had been picked clean. All I got was the standoff for the oil pressure sender, Ive been needing one of those for my 289. No sixes, not even a 300 in a F150.

What I hate about the pull-a-part is that inconsiderate people destroy many good parts trying to remove parts they want. 2 block plates bent, 351W crank lying in the gravel, brackets and pulleys all over the place. Such a waste.

Im going to have to send my dampner in for a rebuild, I cant find a decent used one, mine is in pieces. The one I have is a three groove, I only need a two groove, hate to waste a groove when I dont need it.

Ive got a line on a JY with a couple 250s, I also need an oil pan.

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #13 by chad » Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:44 pm

damper doctor if you REALLY wanna rebuild it (he's on the net).
We havea cross ref chart for pulleys (I'don't C 1 for dampners).

I love the dual topic post:
"...The 82 Granada and 82 Mustang 83 Fairmont were the last ..."
the fox LTD also had'em (1 yr only). 1K member for the bent8, 4 cyl & bent6, another got the i6 I believe...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #14 by Georgia200 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:57 pm

I had a 82 Capri with a 200. AT, PS, AC, pretty loaded car. I should have kept it. I traded it for a CJ5.

Classic Inlines hasnt had 250 push rods in ages. I need ball and ball, any idea who else carries them?

Are 200/250 lifters the same as 302 lifters?

User avatar
powerband
FSP Moderator
Posts: 2056
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:45 pm
Location: Mid Hudson Valley - \H/

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #15 by powerband » Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:20 am

Classic Inlines hasnt had 250 push rods in ages. I need ball and ball, any idea who else carries them?

Rocker Arms Unlimited has made custom length adjustable rocker PR's for my 250 projects. ( 'nice guys too ,,,)

http://www.rockerarms.com/

have fun


Image
" Everything in my garage has a story ..."

Viperwolf1
Registered User
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:17 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #16 by Viperwolf1 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:02 am

Georgia200 wrote:The 82 Granada and 82 Mustang 83 Fairmont were the last 250/200s that Ford put in cars in the U.S. Thats 38/37 years ago.

Ive been picking up odds and ends as I find them, pretty unusual around here to find one in a JY.

The link shows that the D7DP-7976-AA bell is for a 157 tooth flexplate. Is that incorrect?

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/d ... ansmission


That article is very wrong. It lists a bunch of bells as 157 tooth type, even pan-fill bells which only used 164 tooth. Here is a good reference from an old trans guy that's been parting them out for decades. Select bell housing on the right. https://mmerlinn.com/catalog/miss_yoodi ... dc4f_f.htm

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9761
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #17 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:54 pm

Viperwolf1 wrote:
Georgia200 wrote:The 82 Granada and 82 Mustang 83 Fairmont were the last 250/200s that Ford put in cars in the U.S. Thats 38/37 years ago.

Ive been picking up odds and ends as I find them, pretty unusual around here to find one in a JY.

The link shows that the D7DP-7976-AA bell is for a 157 tooth flexplate. Is that incorrect?

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/d ... ansmission


That article is very wrong. It lists a bunch of bells as 157 tooth type, even pan-fill bells which only used 164 tooth. Here is a good reference from an old trans guy that's been parting them out for decades. Select bell housing on the right. https://mmerlinn.com/catalog/miss_yoodi ... dc4f_f.htm


Yes Viperwolf1, there probably are lots of miss information on the different web articles on part numbers but that's why we try to be as accurate as possable with info and experiences on this site, for the most part I think we are doing a very good job. The Ford bell housing casting / design # D7DP-7967-AA located on the part is the only one that we are dealing with in this case please note that Ford part numbers on packaging, box, or bag etc. maynot always be a match to the casting / design number embossed on the part. This one is a 157 thooth flex plate bell check out the picture in my above post #11 to see it, (the second to the last picture shows the casting / design number) it's made for for a case fill C4 plus It's what "Georgia200" has already acquired, for his intended purpose it's going to be perfect for the 250 engine swap he's doing in his 1967 Mustang. It also looks exactly like the one that was in my very low Milage 1977 Ford Maverick 250 / C4, with Power Steering and Power Disk Brakes. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9761
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #18 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:59 pm

Georgia200 wrote:I had a 82 Capri with a 200. AT, PS, AC, pretty loaded car. I should have kept it. I traded it for a CJ5.

Classic Inlines hasnt had 250 push rods in ages. I need ball and ball, any idea who else carries them?

Are 200/250 lifters the same as 302 lifters?


Yes "Georgia200, I agree with you it makes me sick to see so many these parts being damaged at these Pick N Pulls, I used to have a good collection of these vintage parts and engines up until a few years ago but not since I moved. The 1982 Mustang or Capri with a 200 re a couple of cars I have also been on the look out for a potential build up and they also make a nice DD but they are not so easy to find.

The Ball and Ball (non-adjustable rockers) push rods should also still be available in stock lenght and plus or minus.060 lengths at NAPA auto parts and others. Yes 302 lifters are the same however if you order them you might get a set of 16 instead of 12 or you might individual boxes of 1, 2, or 4, ect. see below link as an example. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited

Sealed Power Liters fits 2.9 (V6), 3.3 (200), and 4.1 (250) Ford sixes 4 boxes of 2 nos
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1986-1992- ... SwGDZbWNBC
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #19 by Georgia200 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:55 pm

The link viper posted shows the D7DP being a 164 tooth flexplate.

I sent off a RockAuto order today for a bunch of engine stuff.

This week Im going to get a 164 tooth flexplate and a starter from Summit and see if they fit. Summits right up the road.

New question: How much resistance should the rockers and pedestals have on the shaft?

I have disassembled three shafts and had to use heat to get them apart.

I was in the JY this weekend and looked at some metric shafts that had been removed. Those rockers slid on and off quite easily.

Should I use a brake honing tool and open up my rockers and pedestals so that they slide and rotate on the shaft easy?

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

rebuild thread

Post #20 by chad » Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:10 pm

Georgia200 wrote:Should I use a brake honing tool and open up my rockers and pedestals so that they slide and rotate on the shaft easy?

i took emery cloth'n lightly sanded out the high stuff on the rod. B sure to clean out inside (used a long gun brush) as its an oil passage. Y go crazy w/hand power tools?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9761
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #21 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:55 pm

Georgia200 wrote:The link viper posted shows the D7DP being a 164 tooth flexplate.

I sent off a RockAuto order today for a bunch of engine stuff.

This week Im going to get a 164 tooth flexplate and a starter from Summit and see if they fit. Summits right up the road.

New question: How much resistance should the rockers and pedestals have on the shaft?

I have disassembled three shafts and had to use heat to get them apart.

I was in the JY this weekend and looked at some metric shafts that had been removed. Those rockers slid on and off quite easily.

Should I use a brake honing tool and open up my rockers and pedestals so that they slide and rotate on the shaft easy?


I will have to disagree on your bell being for a 164 tooth flex plate! In my OPIN think your going to find that only a 157 tooth flex plate Will fit your bell. Here is one video (see below C4 link) that covers the differance's between the Case Fill C4 157 tooth flex plate (this is the first one) and the Pan Fill C4's 164 tooth flex plate (in the second one). Pay close attention to how many bolts hold the bells onto the C4 cases. You can also see there is a difference in the two cases. The 164 tooth bells can not be used on the case fill C4 trans they are not interchangeable with the 157 tooth bells. As a side note the last trans is a C5 that is made to fit the late 200 with the big bell blocks (its 2/3 of a 302 V8 bell).

The differance's in both of the C4's and the later lock up C5's
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Rzq5WO-MA

How clean is the rocker shaft, Is it rusty or galled were the rocker rides? What do the rocker arm bushings look like? Pictures would be some help on this. The wear to rocker shaft is on the bottom half of the shaft and is also on the bottom of the rocker arm bushings. New rocker shafts and rocker bushings are available and inexpensive. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #22 by Georgia200 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:20 pm

I have new rockers and a new shaft. I will have to reuse the pedestals.

My D7DP bell is a mystery. I have two different sources stating that it is a 157 and a 164 tooth.

I will have to continue to investigate.

In regards to the rocker shaft. Should the rockers and pedestals slide on with no interference?

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9761
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #23 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:33 pm

The pedistals need to be a tight fit. You can try to warm up the pedistals and also put the shaft in the freezer to make it easier. Do you have a way to measure the shaft and rocker arms accurately? There is a clearance between the two measurements this is about the same as a valve guide to valve stem clearance .0008 to .0010. You need to prefit them first so they operate smoothly before assembly of the pedistals. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Viperwolf1
Registered User
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:17 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #24 by Viperwolf1 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:44 am

bubba22349 wrote:
I will have to disagree on your bell being for a 164 tooth flex plate! In my OPIN think your going to find that only a 157 tooth flex plate Will fit your bell. Here is one video (see below C4 link) that covers the differance's between the Case Fill C4 157 tooth flex plate (this is the first one) and the Pan Fill C4's 164 tooth flex plate (in the second one). Pay close attention to how many bolts hold the bells onto the C4 cases. You can also see there is a difference in the two cases. The 164 tooth bells can not be used on the case fill C4 trans they are not interchangeable with the 157 tooth bells. As a side note the last trans is a C5 that is made to fit the late 200 with the big bell blocks (its 2/3 of a 302 V8 bell).

The differance's in both of the C4's and the later lock up C5's
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Rzq5WO-MA


Correct. Pan-fill and case-fill bells are not really interchangeable. However, there were both 157 and 164 tooth small block type bells for case-fill C4s. The 157 was needed in small body V8 cars like mustangs and falcons in the 60's. By 1977 almost nothing needed a smaller bell although the mustang II used a 141 tooth flexplate and bell until 1978.

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #25 by Georgia200 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:36 pm

Ive decided not to use this bell. Im searching for a 157 tooth.

I also need a set of 250 alternator brackets. The bracket I have also mounts the AC and I dont want to clutter things up with it.

Parts around here are tough to find for a 250.

Making progress, worked on all the bits and pieces I took off the doner engine. timer pointer, cam oil slinger, pulleys, front cover. ect

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #26 by chad » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:41 pm

"...Parts around here...'
where's that?
I know the 157 & 164 tooth (I think it is) better than 134...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #27 by Georgia200 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:49 am

Im in Middle Georgia.

Most of the 250s Ive found are in cars that had AC and PS. Those cars dont have a stand alone Alt bracket.

I bought a C5OP 157 tooth bell off ebay tonight. Hated to spend the extra money, but maybe i can sell the 164 and get some of it back.

Went to a JY today. They had several mavericks picked clean, but I did see a set of I6 frame brackets a a large log head on a Fairmont that i want to go back and get.

I will have a set of Mav, 65/66, 67/68, 69/70 frame brackets so I can finish my comparison of them.

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

200 to 250 Swap - late Mav mounts'n towers

Post #28 by chad » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:52 am

"...69/70 frame brackets so I can finish my comparison..."
that's not a"late Mav." they finished in '77. OEM they were 1 piece (a rivit between)
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
Econoline
Registered User
Posts: 1443
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:37 pm
Location: Anacortes, WA

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #29 by Econoline » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:58 am

I have passenger side 250 lower alternator bracket. I used the upper arm. I had to use the 170 lower mount to fit the alternator in the doghouse. PM me.
It ain't gonna fix itself

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #30 by Georgia200 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:43 pm

I have the one piece Maverick frame brackets and frame brackets from each of the different Mustangs. 65/66, 67/68, 69/70.

You can make any of them work, but the key is making them work without moving the transmission mount. As soon as the transmission moves fore or aft, the driveshaft length changes.

Im working on the different combinations to drop in a 250 without moving the transmission.

If you have an early Falcon and the 250 is to long, thats a different scenario, but for 64+ that should not be an issue.

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

200 to 250 Swap ina Square Body

Post #31 by chad » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:43 pm

"...a different scenario..."
the "Handbook" hasa pretty good work-a-round~
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9761
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #32 by bubba22349 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:46 pm

Georgia200 wrote:Ive decided not to use this bell. Im searching for a 157 tooth.

I also need a set of 250 alternator brackets. The bracket I have also mounts the AC and I dont want to clutter things up with it.

Parts around here are tough to find for a 250.

Making progress, worked on all the bits and pieces I took off the doner engine. timer pointer, cam oil slinger, pulleys, front cover. ect


Just curious did you ever try to bolt up that bell to your C4 to see if it fit?
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #33 by Georgia200 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:18 pm

I did not test fit the bell, the engine is on a stand,, but I will when I take it off.

Making progress. The new bell is on the way. I bagged all the nuts and bolts when I tore the donor engine apart. Im degressing and derusting those, then putting them where they go on the engine. I dont think Im missing any.

As soon as the bell arrives I will buy the torq converter, flex and block plate. The donor had the spacer and bolts, the old tranny will have the bell to tranny bolts.

I need to send the dampner off to be rebuilt. Good used ones dont exist and no one makes them new.

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9761
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #34 by bubba22349 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:12 pm

The 250 six shares the same crankshaft front hub size as the 289's and 302's so you might look into having one of the 289 / 302 Dampners moded by cutting off the weight imbalance and rebalanceing to a Zero / Or also called an Internal balance. There probably are severial other aftermarket race Dampeners that could be used, here are a few, Professional Products, Fluid Dampner, & Innovators West see below links. Also many years ago when Jack Clifford (RIP) was still running his shop he had Fisher make some custom balancers for the 250's six'es, one of our site members has been running one for over ten years now. Also at least one of our site members is using the Innvators West balancer on his 250 you might give them a call and see what they can build for you (see below link to their site info. Glad to hear you are making some good progress. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:

Professional Products has removeable weight for Zero balance
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Professi ... ,1802.html

Fluid Dampener has Internal Balanced in Three and Four bolt styles
https://fluidampr.com/ford/#33

Innovators West
https://innovatorswest.com
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

250 Swap-in

Post #35 by chad » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:19 pm

"...dampner off to be rebuilt. Good used ones dont exist..."
I like the 3 shive 250 I got from Matt @ VI. (all ways go to those who support us 1st).
/OR/
daper doc on line in Cali
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #36 by Georgia200 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:16 pm

Econoline, I received the alt bracket today. Thank you very much. One part closer.

One piece at a time.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18cW_yHo3PY

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

250 Swap

Post #37 by chad » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:32 pm

"...One piece at a time.......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18cW_yHo3PY...
Y do U think they call mine the "Cash Bronco"? 33 yrs now, still not done~
(same reason as Johnny - no greenbacks)
:nod: :wow: :cool:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
Econoline
Registered User
Posts: 1443
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:37 pm
Location: Anacortes, WA

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #38 by Econoline » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:37 pm

Wow that was crazy fast from here to GA! :thumbup:
It ain't gonna fix itself

User avatar
powerband
FSP Moderator
Posts: 2056
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:45 pm
Location: Mid Hudson Valley - \H/

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #39 by powerband » Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:54 am

a little more on HB
...
Also many years ago when Jack Clifford (RIP) was still running his shop he had Fisher make some custom balancers for the 250's six'es, one of our site members has been running one for over ten years now. Also ...


@ 15 years ago I acquired the Jack Clifford Shop-built TriPower 250 . I actually didn't know if it would run since it had been 'mothballed' for years. I bought it for the period parts on it including the custom buillt "FISHER" balancer .


nice isn't it' :
Image. Image . Image



I'm not aware of any current aftermarket balancers for the 250. When I researched the engine and the Fisher balancer @ 15 years ago, , I was able to contact "Fisher Engineering" and they claimed then, to have built a batch for Clifford Research and "still might have some on the shelf". Don't have a clue if "Fisher' still viable. Any new balancer info appreciated.

have fun

PS On the Supercharged 250 Maverick, I welded on a 5.0 - 6 rib accy drive pulley to the 250's accessory drive on the balancer for the SC belt.

Image . Image . Image . Image . Image . Image
" Everything in my garage has a story ..."

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #40 by Georgia200 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:38 am

I dont see how a SBF balancer will work because of pulley alignment. The crank pulley would stick out much further than the WP and Alt pulleys.

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9761
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #41 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:43 pm

The hub would be cut down so matches up the 250 lenght. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #42 by Georgia200 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:47 am

The 157 tooth bell arrived yesterday. Summit has shipped the flex, pickup tube and oil pan. Rockauto shipped the oil pump, oil/temp sending units. Im getting the torque converter from Oriellys.

I bought a hotter cam that hasnt arrived yet, I dont know what valve springs I will need. I have to disassemble the engine and coat the bearings and lobes with break in lube anyway. I dont know how long the engine has been on the stand and I dont see any evidence of break in lube.

The last big items are the balancer and head.

Im not sure what carb setup I want to use. I may use the 1V C9 head off my 200 for starters and build the spare C9 head. I really like a 2V or tripower. I dont want to use the Offy setup, I would prefer the flanges be welded on the intake. Will Offy sell the linkage separate?

My goal is to do the engine swap over a weekend and get the car back on the road. For whatever reason, I take a car off the road and its months before I can get it back on the road. I took the 65 down in Sep for a waterpump change and I just got it started yesterday.

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

250 Swap In, machining? carb?

Post #43 by chad » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:42 am

"...a hotter cam that hasnt arrived yet, I dont know what valve springs I will need. I have to disassemble..."
no machine wrk? A modernization is sure warrented if dissassembled this far. Just the cam? Hummm...
Seen the recommendations in "the Handbook" ? in the "tech archive" above? prt recommendation? machining? They're v e r y specific to this engine,
not a bad thing to consider...
some build the motor around the cam, choose the cam frm the good ol primary automotive Q: "what is the application?" Carb is pretty much dictated frm there as well...
Plan the wrk, wrk the plan (must research well 1st) all the way thru w/o change, to the end...
:thumbup:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9761
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #44 by bubba22349 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:29 pm

Yes Offy and a few others sell the linkage kits or individual parts separate. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

User avatar
chad
Registered User
Posts: 5257
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:51 am
Location: Lawrence Swamp, S. Amherst, MA

250 Swap

Post #45 by chad » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:13 pm

"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #46 by Georgia200 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:11 am

The 250 I bought is a rebuilt shortblock the builder decided not to use. At the last second he caved and put in a 302 in a 71 Maverick Grabber.

Its 030 over, has the early timing chain, and a stock reground cam. I bought 65 Coupes Schneider cam that he didnt use. Im going to plasticgauge the bearings, lube, degree the cam and retorque everything before I button it up.

I will run a 2100 if I can find someone local to do the machine work. I havent had any luck finding anyone who will braze cast iron. I had a set of y-block ram horns that had a crack in them and I ended up tossing them, couldnt get them repaired, couldnt sell them.

The carbs will not work, they have a SCV. Im going with a Duraspark II.

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #47 by Georgia200 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:56 am

Got a bunch of boxes yesterday. Oil pump, pickup tube, waterpump, oil/temp sending units and a bunch of stuff I orderd for my 289 car.

One piece at a time.

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #48 by Georgia200 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:50 pm

oil pan and flex plate arrived today, cam has been shipped. Closer...............

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #49 by Georgia200 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:14 pm

Somehow I ordered the wrong oilpan. I hauled it back to Summit and reordered the correct pan and picked up a block plate.

I had a few other items to return from my 65 so I ended up getting the pan, block plate and $4.

Odd that the block plate cost $20 more than the flexplate. The flexplate requires stamping, cutting teeth and welding, while the block plate is just a stamped piece of metal.

Georgia200
Registered User
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Re: 200 to 250 Swap - Bell Housing

Post #50 by Georgia200 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:08 pm

I found a torque converter online and bought it. Last one the seller had, so I hope that it is on the way. Everyone else is out of them.

65 coupe is sending me a oil pan.

I need to get to the post office and get the balancer in the mail for rebuild.

Those are the last three big puzzle pieces that I was missing. Everything else is odds and ends.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests