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250 Six Double roller timing chain?

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62Ranchero200
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250 Six Double roller timing chain?

Post #1 by 62Ranchero200 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:09 am

Could someone more knowledegable explain how to positively identify a double roller timing chain? Is the 69-72 250 timing chain on the Clay Smith Cams / Vintage Inlines web site a double roller?

https://www.claysmithcams.com/timing-chain-set-250ci-1969-1972/

Thanks
Bob
62 Ranchero, 252 cid, 300 rods, RaceTek pstns, ARP mains bolts & studs, balanced & blueprinted, CI AL head, 1.6 adj rckrs, Smith Bros, 274/274/108 cam, CI int, Holley 500, DSII, CI SS hdrs, PowerMaster strtr and 1wire alt, Optima, V8 rad, T-5z, 10" organic clutch, 5 lug 8" w/3.80 Trac Loc, rear drums, front 5 lug discs, Centerlines. Next: ?.

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wsa111
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Re: 250 Six Double roller timing chain?

Post #2 by wsa111 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:36 am

The timing chain set for the 250 is not the full roller deal.
The dual roller is only for the 170-200 engines.
The only person who had made a custom dual roller for the 250 in Will McClearen who is a member of ford six.
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=80083&p=625371&hilit=Kelly#p625371
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6425CL & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
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chad
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double roller timing chain fora 250/4.2

Post #3 by chad » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:11 pm

62Ranchero200 wrote:...how to positively identify a double roller timing chain? Is the 69-72 250 timing chain on the Clay Smith Cams /Vintage Inlines web site a double roller?...Bob"

"Yes" it is.
C the multi 'columns' of double (side-by-side) "tubular steel cross links"
Just like takin 2 regular timing chains layin 1 down (on edge) then stackin nother perfectly matched on topa it.

Will'n Kelly had the 250 crank snout turned dwn to match the bent8 size (I believe) and placed that model 'double' on it.
~Correct me if I'm wrong~
(coulda matched the 200/3.3 snout & put the CS 1 on there...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: 250 Six Double roller timing chain?

Post #4 by bubba22349 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:32 pm

Hi Bob, X2 no that listing is for a stock early 250 (link belt type timing chain set). The much stronger double roller timing chain sets were first used in the big heavy duty Ford truck engines and then also in the Factory Ford Hi Performance Ford engines too. See link for an example of a SBF 5.0 performance timing chain set, and the second link a aftermarket type Billet double true roller timing chain set.

Ford Performance 302 Double Roller Timing Chain Set
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms- ... /make/ford

Example of a Ford 302 Billet Style Double True Roller Timing Chain Set
https://www.amazon.com/Double-Roller-Ke ... B00YOYF008

Below is also one of my older posts (in Jan. 2016) when I was studying both of these known examples used to install a double roller timing chain set in a 250 six block. It's been edited to repair a few of the non working links, other corrections and some additional info that hopefully makes this chain swap more clear. I think this swap would be great for your 250 and that loose cam locating pin is a tell tail sign that your near the limits of the stock timing chain sets, see below the trouble Does 10's had with them. I really want to do this swap on a 250 build, hopefully soon. Best of luck on your cam swap Bob.

:hmmm: The qickest way to a double roller timing chain set to fit a 250 block might be in using and modding the SBF V8 gears (289, 302, 5.0) and moding the length of the supply'ed chain or using another double roller timing chain. At least two site members and possibly some others on our site have went this route, like Does 10's was the first known to custom engineer a working 250 double roller timing chain set using the Ford 302 V8 double roller timing chain set which allows the 302 timing gears to be used perfectly and then shortening the chain one link to 56. He Modded the front of the crankshaft snout removing .050 so the gear could go further back and line up properly. Also turning down the front of the camshafts nose to the size of 302 V8 and drilling out cams front journal for the larger 302 locating pin. To my knowledge he's been using this double roller timing chain setup now quite a number of years with total success.

And a later on Mike1157 did this swap using the Billet Ford 302 double roller timing chain set and modded the procedure by using a different timing chain the correct 56 count made for a 1969 to 1978 Toyota Corolla 18R engine (manufactured in India) or you could also use (the better Melling 3DR56 Double Roller chain) he used the first chain that worked perfectly witout being shortened to fit his specific 250 build see the below links.

You can learn a lot for both double roller timing chain installs who knows the best maybe a combo of the two. There was also once talk of custom making these double roller timing chains specifically to fit the US 250 blocks I don't think it ever happened. Good luck.

Dose 10's Double Roller Timing Chain Set

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 4&p=447439

Mike1157 Double Roller Timing Chain Set,

/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71635

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=71986

The Three Stock Ford US 250 Timing Chain Sets

Differences in the thrre stock Ford 250 Timing Chain Sets. All these stock timing chain sets are not the best solution for a 250 built for a truly Hi Performance effort of much over 200 HP or if you rev your engine higher than 6000 RPM where they become a weak link. Does 10's found this out on his wifes Falcon with a Turbo 250. They bent numerous camshaft locating pins and even sheared one completely off.

The details of the Three Stock Ford US 250 Timing Chain Sets for our performance type of builds the preferred set is the 1969 to 1972 the info needed to ID' the early set (1969 to 1972) is listed below in Econolines orginal post see the section after the note that's hi lighted in Blue. I also Edited this post today 4/11/2020 to reflect some new info :shockin: :smash: that I discovered this morning, there is also a third timing chain set for the 250 six'es used on the 1978 to 80's Fords know details listed in 3. below. inthink these other Cam and Crank gear numbers have been mentioned before but I don't remember were, yet I didn't catch on until now that there was another later timing chain set used (1978 to 1980), the newest 250 I have personally had was in a 1977 Maverick.

1. The early narrow chain set stock on the 1969 to 1972 250 six it has cam timing straight up, this is the recommended best one for hi performance use. Has the Cloyes # S414 Cam Gear and # S415 Crank Gear.

2. The 1973 to 1977 250 timing chain is wider and the cam gear is retarded 4 degrees this is suitable for a stock to mild engine build. Might be best for an engine that's still using or if your state requires the factory emission equipment and smog testing such as in Calif. on the 1975 to 1977 up cars. Has the Cloyes # S442 Cam Gear and # S415 Crank Gear.

3. The 1978 to 1980 250's had another timing chain set I don't know the details of this except it's the Cloyes Cam gear is # S502T and also is used with Cloyes # S507 crank gear. I can only guess that it's also retarded 4 or more degrees, so this is set is suitable for only those doing a stock 250 rebuild that may need to fallow their states smog testing rules. See link for pictures of these gears unfothinately the cam gear is upside dow so you can't see the timing marks.

250 Cam Gear differances

Early 250 cam gear 1969 to 1972 Cloyes # S414 used with the # S415 crank gear
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/for ... ocket,5722

Cloyes Crank Gear #S415 used with both above # S414 and second Cam # S442 gears
https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/cloye ... ocket,5723

Later 250 cam gear 1973 to 1977 Cloyes # S442 used with the # S415 crank gear
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/for ... ocket,5722

Last 250 cam gear 1978 to 1980 or? Cloyes # S502T that's used with crank gear # S507
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.ph ... cc=1130016

Last 250 crank gear 1978 to 1980
https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/cloye ... ocket,5723

You can also see pictures of these timing chain sets below in the Post by site member "Econoline" were he did an extensive study comparing and identifying the parts of these two Ford 250 timing chain sets. Check your timing chain parts against the below pictures. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:

The Original Post by "Econoline"
"I know this has been discussed and I have read through all the various topics posted regarding the timing set for the 250 but I am still a little confused. I want to replace my timing set so I've been looking into it. My 250 is a '70 and I understand I want a pre '73 chain.

There has been a lot of discussion that the available sets are all late era retarded. But when I look for a set I find 2 different sets available from at least 2 companies and probably sealed power as well (with a couple of hitches ;)). First are the ones available @ Autozone and Advanced Auto and maybe elsewhere, the "SA Gear" #73083 @ $38 for '69-'72 250 & #73016 for '73 on. Next is Cloyes, Here are the Key Parts of 1969 to 1972 Timing Chain Set , while no set is available for '69-'72, parts can be bought to make a set those being #C363 chain, #S415 crank, and #S414 cam @ ~$70. The '73 on is available in set #C3016 with the only part difference being the cam sprocket #S442 vs S414 for the early version.

To complicate things further, I present these 3 pictures, notice the "SA" in the casting.

Cloyes S414:
Image

"SA" late:
Image

"SA" early:
Image

On the "SA" late set, if you look close, you can see S442 on the cam sprocket as well as "SA" and so on and S415 on the crank sprocket showing that this "SA" set is in fact Cloyes, the difference may* be in the chain which may* be a Cloyes C354 which is a cheaper chain than the C363. If you look at the "SA" early set it has the S415 sprocket but the Cam sprocket is completely different, and not the S414 :bang:

Any light any one can shed would be great. At this point I think I'll just peice meal an all Cloyes set together with the C636, S414, and S415

I feel like Mike Myers :lol: welcome to schprokets :)"

And here is another on the 250 timing chain sets, with some info that might be adaptable to work for the US 250 block see below link for these posts by "Xctesy".

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69097&p=547594&hilit=250+timing+chain+set#p529459
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: 250 Six Double roller timing chain?

Post #5 by Econoline » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:49 pm

I used an s414 and 415 with a Schneider cam and came in 2.5 or 3 degrees advanced, can't remember which. Within a degree of the cam's grind specs of 2 advanced. I remember I had a hard time finding the cam gear at the time. I ending up finding a nos one on ebay.
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