Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

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echo1955
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Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #1 by echo1955 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:45 am

Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.
I bought my 65 in 65. I brought it back to life in 98. I had to repaint it a couple months ago because my prized 100 lb Lab played catch me iffen ya can wid a 10 lb cat. Their playground was the top of my FB. Scratched the paint all the way down to metal.

This is where it was:
Image Image

This is where I is now..
Image

It sat up on blocks for about 25 years in California. The engine runs great. It has 68000 mi on it. The compression is 165 across 5 cylinders. 155 on the # 3 cylinder.

I want to put AL head from CI. A 3 carb manifold when CI gets them in stock. Dual headers. DUI ignition.

This is my Code: 63A-5-26-23B-62-2-6
I believe it has a C4 Automatic trans. I have no clue what the torque converter is other than it is original.

I will be driving the car about 5000 mi a year. To car shows and once in a while to keep it running good. I don’t mind a slight rough idle.
I want some increase in performance.

Q:
1: Should I rebuild the block back to stock.
2: What would be the best carb.
3: What would be the best cam.
4: Is my torque converter ok as is

There is so much information concerning cam selection I can’t get my mind wrapped around it..

I understand and appreciate any input members may have will be their opinions offered to help me make my efforts a DIRT-FT…

“”Do It Right The-First Time””… :beer:
Thanks again..
Roy

PS My prized Lab survived with out injuries..... I haven't found the cat yet :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #2 by rbohm » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:14 pm

echo1955 wrote:Q:
1: Should I rebuild the block back to stock.


you want to make sure that the bottom end is solid. to that end i would rebuild it to stock specs, but use upgraded parts, like ARP fasteners and federal mogul bearings, and moly faced rings.

2: What would be the best carb.


since you are going to use the aluminum head, you have a good choice of carbs, for the small six i suggest using the 390 cmf holley four barrel carb.

3: What would be the best cam.


start by determining what compression ratio you are going to use, 9.5:1 is a good choice for a street engine, the select a cam that will work best in the rpm range you plan to use the engine in, for a street engine that would be about 1000-5000 rpm. since you would have a choice of lobe separation angles if you buy the cam from classicinlines, i suggest using the 112 degree cam since you have the automatic.

4: Is my torque converter ok as is


it should be unless you are going drag racing regularly. the stock converter stalls at about 1200-1500 rpm.

There is so much information concerning cam selection I can’t get my mind wrapped around it..

I understand and appreciate any input members may have will be their opinions offered to help me make my efforts a DIRT-FT…

“”Do It Right The-First Time””… :beer:
Thanks again..
Roy


there is an article about cam selection at the classicinlines site that has a lot of good information.

PS My prized Lab survived with out injuries..... I haven't found the cat yet :mrgreen:


perhaps the cat has decided that the dog is too high an energy level, and decided to head for greener pastures?
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echo1955
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #3 by echo1955 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:00 pm

Thank you rbohm for such a fast reply..

you want to make sure that the bottom end is solid. to that end i would rebuild it to stock specs, but use upgraded parts, like ARP fasteners and federal mogul bearings, and moly faced rings.

I can’t rebuild my self. Maybe CI will be able to recommend a shop that will use the parts you recommend. They are just down the road a piece..

since you are going to use the aluminum head, you have a good choice of carbs, for the small six i suggest using the 390 cmf holley four barrel carb.

Does this mean 390cfm x3 = 1170 total cfm.

start by determining what compression ratio you are going to use, 9.5:1 is a good choice for a street engine, the select a cam that will work best in the rpm range you plan to use the engine in, for a street engine that would be about 1000-5000 rpm. since you would have a choice of lobe separation angles if you buy the cam from classicinlines, i suggest using the 112 degree cam since you have the automatic.


Does this mean I need to have the block built first.

Here are some cam choices CI offers.
#Class I (200° - 215°)
Good idle quality. Low rpm torque and mid range performance.Will work with
stock or slightly modified engine. Manual or auto transmission.
#Class II (215° - 230°)
Fair idle quality. Good low to mid range torque and horsepower. Will work with
stock or modified engine. For use with manual or automatic transmission with mild stall converter. Lower vacuum than stock.

Which of the 2 choices above does the 112* fit in.. I think I like Class II. Will I be going too far out on the limb.. Fair idle quality will be fine for me..


Drag racing is not in the cards for me… so keep the converter..
Thanks again rbohm. You have been very helpful and I am still reading the teck articles at CI.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #4 by echo1955 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:25 pm

rbohm you got me thinking again. The environment I had to paint my car in is not ideal for putting an engine together. I had to paint the car in sections and was able to sand the clear coat to remove the dust particles. (not enough OP to note)

I just talked to my son-in-law and he said I could use his 2-car garage. It’s sparkling clean and weather protected.

It’s been 30 years since I rebuilt an engine. However I still have all the tools needed. Well except for a cam bearing, degree wheel and dial indicator tool.
I should be able to pick up the torque specs I need on the Internet.

I have read where you needed to degree the cam. I don’t recall having to do that. If I lined the marks up shouldn’t the cam be in the correct position with what ever the cam spec called for. All I recall was using the degree wheel and dial indicator to establish TDC.

Today is I be ok there..
Thanks again rbohm for your time and help. Much appreciated be me..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #5 by Gene Fiore » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:55 pm

echo1955 wrote:I have read where you needed to degree the cam. I don’t recall having to do that. If I lined the marks up shouldn’t the cam be in the correct position with what ever the cam spec called for. All I recall was using the degree wheel and dial indicator to establish TDC.


It is really imperative IMHO to degree the camshaft...there is no guarantee that the cam is ground precisely per the cam card specs from the manufacturer. :wink: Even if you line up the marks you could end up with a camshaft that is severely retarded which would hurt performance big time.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block., My Thoughts

Post #6 by FalconSedanDelivery » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:57 pm

First , Great Car , not many 6cyl Fastbacks , That said if it was Mine , Id swap in a 250 rather than Rebuild the 200, the 50 Cubes will do wonders for the performance your looking for and, it also opens up the door for Better , more Cost effective upgrades , the big one being Cam / Torque Converter options , as it has the same Bell Pattern as a V-8 , The Engine will fit fine with the 200 mounts if you add a small hood scoop , Shelby Style / Teardrop / something Period correct is what Id suggest , or better still a all Glass Teardrop hood ( there is a Vendor In Calif that sells them ) Don't forget projects tend to snow ball , once started ( you change one thing , you need to change 2 more to make it work/correct , Brake upgrade to 5 lug all around , maybe disc in front , ( although the 65-66 cars are so light Drum's work great when upgraded to the 10 inch V-8 stuff ) 10x2.25-2.5 , as compared to 9x2.25 , along with that comes the steering linkage and upgrade to a 8inch rear ( as gear upgrades will demand at least that) , or your engine mods won't be used to their best advantage,I can go on BUT!!, I think you see where I am going , If you don't plan on spending less than 6-8000 Id think serious abut what you want , can afford, because your looking at that amount as a minimum , for what its worth ------------
Falcon 6's, FE's I Like them both , Sold all My 6 cyl stuff ( for now at least ) glad to pass along some tips though

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #7 by echo1955 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:08 pm

Gene Fiore wrote:
echo1955 wrote:I have read where you needed to degree the cam. I don’t recall having to do that. If I lined the marks up shouldn’t the cam be in the correct position with what ever the cam spec called for. All I recall was using the degree wheel and dial indicator to establish TDC.


It is really imperative IMHO to degree the camshaft...there is no guarantee that the cam is ground precisely per the cam card specs from the manufacturer. :wink: Even if you line up the marks you could end up with a camshaft that is severely retarded which would hurt performance big time.


Roger that. The best learning experience I ever got over the years
IS
Never question Experience..
I will degree the cam .

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #8 by echo1955 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:22 pm

First , Great Car , not many 6cyl Fastbacks , That said if it was Mine , Id swap in a 250 rather than Rebuild the 200, the 50 Cubes will do wonders for the performance your looking for and, it also opens up the door for Better , more Cost effective upgrades , the big one being Cam / Torque Converter options , as it has the same Bell Pattern as a V-8 , The Engine will fit fine with the 200 mounts if you add a small hood scoop , Shelby Style / Teardrop / something Period correct is what Id suggest , or better still a all Glass Teardrop hood ( there is a Vendor In Calif that sells them ) Don't forget projects tend to snow ball , once started ( you change one thing , you need to change 2 more to make it work/correct , Brake upgrade to 5 lug all around , maybe disc in front , ( although the 65-66 cars are so light Drum's work great when upgraded to the 10 inch V-8 stuff ) 10x2.25-2.5 , as compared to 9x2.25 , along with that comes the steering linkage and upgrade to a 8inch rear ( as gear upgrades will demand at least that) , or your engine mods won't be used to their best advantage,I can go on BUT!!, I think you see where I am going , If you don't plan on
spending less than 6-8000
Id think serious abut what you want , can afford, because your looking at that amount as a minimum , for what its worth ------------


Well you got that right.. At this time I'm looking for more candy with a little more spunk than performance. . I have already put power steering on it.
The rest as you suggested, I will leave to my grand kids when they get there.. :?

In the mean time I still want to drive it some more...... :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #9 by Freddy » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:10 pm

I am currently building a '65 200 block (with '72 200 crank and rods). Have already ordered a CI head, here is what I am doing to the rest of the engine:

Bored .030 Honed with 280 grit for moly rings
Flat top pistons (From Tempo HSC engine) calculated static CR to be 9.3:1
Balanced rot/recip assembly
ARP rod bolts - resized rods (necessary when replacing bolts)
Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
Yella Terra 1.65:1 Roller Rockers
CI Stainless Header
Holley 390cfm 4bbl carb
Still debating about ignition...

Hope this gives you some ideas... It is my intent that this combination will provide substantial power gains while remaining driveability and great gas mileage.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #10 by '68falconohio » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:15 am

Sweet car!

I'm with FalconSedanDelivery on a 250 vs a 200 if you start from scratch. If you're going trip carbs on a CI head, were you thinking side drafts? Anyone know if hood clearance would even come into play(250, side-drafts)?
'68 Falcon - sold
'99 F-250 Super Duty, '64 Lincoln SA-200 "Redface" - weldin' car
'04 F-350 Super Duty - racecar

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #11 by early ford fan » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:35 am

'68falconohio wrote:Sweet car!

I'm with FalconSedanDelivery on a 250 vs a 200 if you start from scratch. If you're going trip carbs on a CI head, were you thinking side drafts? Anyone know if hood clearance would even come into play(250, side-drafts)?

if you want to stay with a 200 i would still attempt to find a 1981-84 200 engine or block so an automatic overdrive trans will bolt up.the price of gas will always go up.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #12 by MPGmustang » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:57 pm

I'm going to put my $.02 in by this link... it's my dream/future build on a mustang, you can take any idea from it if you'd like.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=57006

I like the:
CI alum head
250ci block or big bell 81-83 200ci block
AOD trans, or maybe a 6speed auto for a v8
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #13 by rbohm » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:00 pm

8) a few things;

Does this mean 390cfm x3 = 1170 total cfm.


no, the 390 cfm indicates the total flow of the carb with all four barrels open at 1.5" of vacuum.

I can’t rebuild my self. Maybe CI will be able to recommend a shop that will use the parts you recommend. They are just down the road a piece..


most shops will work with you, and use the parts you specify, otherwise they use what normally buy. for instance if a shop normally uses factory style fasteners, that is what they will put in the engine, unless you specify ARP fasteners. at some shops there is an up charge for this, at others you supply the fasteners you want, and still others will just install the parts you want without extra charge. talk to the builder before you have them build the short block as to what they do.

Does this mean I need to have the block built first.

Here are some cam choices CI offers.
#Class I (200° - 215°)
Good idle quality. Low rpm torque and mid range performance.Will work with
stock or slightly modified engine. Manual or auto transmission.
#Class II (215° - 230°)
Fair idle quality. Good low to mid range torque and horsepower. Will work with
stock or modified engine. For use with manual or automatic transmission with mild stall converter. Lower vacuum than stock.

Which of the 2 choices above does the 112* fit in.. I think I like Class II. Will I be going too far out on the limb.. Fair idle quality will be fine for me..


you dont have to have the block built first. you can either pick the parts you want ahead of time, or buy them as you go. there are a few good compression ratio calculators on the net, or i believe the formula is in the falcon six handbook as well.

as for the cam choice, i start by picking the desired rpm range where i want the cam to work, then decide on cam specs. you can fudge those specs one way or the other as you like. as for idle quality, that can be fudged also when tuning the engine. for instance, sometimes a can with a slightly rough idle can be made smooth by drilling two small holes in the throttle plates to let more air in, and running a slightly rich idle mixture. adding a little initial timing also affects idle quality.

t’s been 30 years since I rebuilt an engine. However I still have all the tools needed. Well except for a cam bearing, degree wheel and dial indicator tool.
I should be able to pick up the torque specs I need on the Internet.


any shop manual will have teh torque specs, and i think i saw them in the falcon six handbook as well. you can even use the torque specs from a late model 3.3l inline six as they are all the same. as for the cam bearings, i suggest, rather i recommend highly that you have the machine shop install new cam bearings id they are needed. all it takes is for one bearing to be slightly cocked, and you will have issues installing the cam, and turning the engine over by hand. i found that out the hard way.

I have read where you needed to degree the cam. I don’t recall having to do that. If I lined the marks up shouldn’t the cam be in the correct position with what ever the cam spec called for. All I recall was using the degree wheel and dial indicator to establish TDC.


as indicated you really should degree the cam for best performance. and there are good reasons for that;

1: the cam may be slightly off one way or the other

2: the timing gears may be off one way or the other

3: the crank key way and/or the cam gear locating pin may be off one way or the other

4: they all may be off one way or the other, and you will have to deal with tolerance stack. this is where all the parts are slightly off but with in specs, but the tolerance is off thsame way on everything which ends up with the overall tolerance being out of spec.

The environment I had to paint my car in is not ideal for putting an engine together. I had to paint the car in sections and was able to sand the clear coat to remove the dust particles. (not enough OP to note)


i have rebuilt engines in areas that would scare most engine rebuilders, and have never had an issue. the key is to keep everything as clean as possible, and to bag the engine when you are not working on it. something like a 30-50 gallon plastic garbage bag does nicely. the thicker the better.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #14 by echo1955 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:19 pm

Sweet car!

I'm with FalconSedanDelivery on a 250 vs a 200 if you start from scratch. If you're going trip carbs on a CI head, were you thinking side drafts? Anyone know if hood clearance would even come into play(250, side-drafts)?


I don’t feel comfortable with a side draft set up at all. I do not know what version tri carb setup CI will offer. I just assumed it would be a top mount. After looking at CI intake they currently offer I would think their new tri carb would fallow suit allowing for hood clearance.. They seem to be holding it close to their vest at the moment.

Looks as tho I be back to planning stage wid a wait and see..
I know Offenhauser is coming back out with theirs sometime in Oct.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OFY-5205/?rtype=10
This version has to be fitted to the existing intake.

I don’t mind going this route if I have to, but I really really really rather not. :(

I had already finished painting the car. Then I bumped into this site and saw a thread here with a tri carb setup. I thought hey I like that. So I pulled the fenders and the motor. Sandblasted the engine bay and painted it. My time and a few $$ is all it cost me. I already had the tools needed.

That cost me 16 bucks for sand I got from Home Depot. Spent $175 for paint leaving me with enough paint to do several more engine compartments.
FalconSedanDelivery has the right idea. I’m just don’t got the cash to go that far. :beer:

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echo1955
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #15 by echo1955 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:32 pm

early ford fan
if you want to stay with a 200 i would still attempt to find a 1981-84 200 engine or block so an automatic overdrive trans will bolt up.the price of gas will always go up.


My thinking here is to get some nice candy within my cost range. The car will go to my daughter. My grandson will have the time and opportunity to build it further should he take the interest.

Meanwhile I want to go to car shows while I can still drive… :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #16 by echo1955 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:00 pm

MPGmustang wrote:I'm going to put my $.02 in by this link... it's my dream/future build on a mustang, you can take any idea from it if you'd like.

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=57006

I like the:
CI alum head
250ci block or big bell 81-83 200ci block
AOD trans, or maybe a 6speed auto for a v8


Your funds are welcome here by me.. I saw your interest in a one wire alternator.
Alternator----------- 1 wire 140 amp
This is what it looks like on the breakfast table..
Image
It is 130A and I bought it from Performance Distributors
http://www.performancedistributors.com/ ... -mramp.htm
1MR-130-F Cost $313 including sh

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echo1955
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #17 by echo1955 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:18 pm

rbohm don’t give up on me..
I’m trying to understand. According to the tech info CI has posted, the carb set up should equal the cfm the engine build calls for plus or minus a bit..

Staying with the 200 ci, If I use a mild build with aluminum head and large valves the engine will require 330 to 355 cfm.

If I have 3 carb, using center carb for normal driving and the outer 2 closed the engine would be getting 390 cfm.
According to the plus or minus rule this should be fine.

If I put metal to floor using all 3 carbs, now the engine will be getting 1170 cfm.

Q:
1: Is I correct with my thinking
2: If I is correct, will the added cfm cause me problems

My current plan is to have the machine shop bore the block. Install cam bearings, and press the piston rods. I supply everything needed.

Only because I can, have the time and in the end, I guess because I’m just an old cynical so-&-so.. :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #18 by bookworm007 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:28 pm

The 390 is a four barrel that alot of people with the CI head have used with the 4 barrel intake. Its a single carb with 4 barrels and it was used on alot of small blocks. There hasn't been a triple barrel intake for the CI head yet and I don't know when will come out, but thats not to say some one with good enough fab skills couldn't make one up. If you go the triple carb route most people use 2 weber ICH and 1 weber ICT or vis versa can't quite remember one type has a choke and the others don't and you only need one choke. Others have used different one barrels like holleys and such but basically for the triples deal you just need 3 one barrels with the right bolt pattern.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #19 by rbohm » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:09 pm

echo1955 wrote:rbohm don’t give up on me..
I’m trying to understand. According to the tech info CI has posted, the carb set up should equal the cfm the engine build calls for plus or minus a bit..

Staying with the 200 ci, If I use a mild build with aluminum head and large valves the engine will require 330 to 355 cfm.

If I have 3 carb, using center carb for normal driving and the outer 2 closed the engine would be getting 390 cfm.
According to the plus or minus rule this should be fine.

If I put metal to floor using all 3 carbs, now the engine will be getting 1170 cfm.

Q:
1: Is I correct with my thinking
2: If I is correct, will the added cfm cause me problems



bookworm007 hit the nail on the head. the 390 cfm carb from holley is a four barrel carb, and you would use only one of those.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #20 by echo1955 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:59 pm

bookworm007 wrote:The 390 is a four barrel that alot of people with the CI head have used with the 4 barrel intake. Its a single carb with 4 barrels and it was used on alot of small blocks. There hasn't been a triple barrel intake for the CI head yet and I don't know when will come out, but thats not to say some one with good enough fab skills couldn't make one up. If you go the triple carb route most people use 2 weber ICH and 1 weber ICT or vis versa can't quite remember one type has a choke and the others don't and you only need one choke. Others have used different one barrels like holleys and such but basically for the triples deal you just need 3 one barrels with the right bolt pattern.


Thank you bookworm. You did clean out a few cobwebs.
I did some research and it is Two-34ICH w/o choke and One-32/36 DGV Mannual Choke Weber Carburetor
I still don't have a clear picture but I know it can be dun. :beer:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #21 by echo1955 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:02 pm

Thanks rbohm
I'm still in a steep learning curve..

Q: I will be using a DUI distributor. Will I have to change the stock coil.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #22 by bubba22349 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:21 pm

Yes you would just remove it, the DUI has it's own coil all ready built in :thumbup:
Last edited by bubba22349 on Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #23 by MPGmustang » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:01 pm

bubba22349 wrote:Yes but the DUI has the coil; it's built in :thumbup:

:thumbup:

I like the one wire... might have condisered it myself but my stock wireing on the car I know won't handle it properly.
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #24 by bookworm007 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:03 am

Yeah you can put a 2 barrel in the middle but the offenhauser kit for modifying the log head only supports three one barrel carbs. Other than some intakes custom made and a few retro fitted from other engines multi carb set ups are mostly used on the log head by milling the top of the intake from there and securing the desired carb to the intake. The multi carb route has always been very temping for the cool factor and the added performance but as you will notice from first hand accounts it takes more up keep than just a single carb set up. So if you plan on driving your car daily its something to consider, but on a side note I have heard of plans or set ups where they made the outside carbs able to be shut off. Disconnecting both the fuel and throttle plates would allow the simplicity of a single carb and then when you wanted it the power of multi carbs with the cool factor. It would be super sweet to make them activate off a switch so you could have your own go go button.
Ain't no such thing as a car too fast

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #25 by jdn21758 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:52 pm

hello echo,,i have seen youre topic to,you have an awsome car sir,
be carefull on youre fastback,there not many 6 cil,,and succes with
the triple carb. project.

greetings from the dutch,,,JD,,

and yes i like the humor you got,,i am also use a translation side,,,hahahaha,, :wink:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #26 by Explorer » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:10 pm

I'll throw in one tibit of info on the Holley 390. It worked well out of the box, but with the build in my sig line, had to tweak the vacuum secondary springs. Secondaries were not opening. I just went on and installed the quick change kit for it, as it makes it a lot easier to change the springs. Spring change's were needed to make the transition smooth when the secondaries cut in.
66 Bronco half cab, 203 ci, 9.7:1 comp, CI aluminum head and intake, DSII ignition, Clifford header, Keith Black pistons, Isky 256/256 cam, lifters, chrome moly rings, push rods, Holley 390cfm 4v, 4:11 gears, 3-speed, 30/9.50/15's 18.28mpg pushing a 4000lb brick.
66 Mustang Coupe, 200I6 automatic

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #27 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:37 am

by bubba22349 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:21 pm
Yes you would just remove it, the DUI has it's own coil all ready built in :thumbup:



Tanks bubba… It took me so long to get back kuz I had to leave the country for a week..
Visiting the grandkids in Cal e forn ya as ol’s swartz calls it.. :mrgreen:

Think maybe I leave the coil there and run a dummy wire… yes… no???? :?

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #28 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:51 am

MPGmustang wrote:
bubba22349 wrote:Yes but the DUI has the coil; it's built in :thumbup:

:thumbup:

I like the one wire... might have condisered it myself but my stock wireing on the car I know won't handle it properly.


I don’t believe the one wire alternator will have any negative effect on your original wiring…
If you ever have a need to replace your current alternator consider the one wire..

I will be using the Optima battery as well. I was very lucky with the metal around my battery. There was no corrosion at all. However my battery tray was pitted in a couple areas. The Optima should eliminate that silent attack..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #29 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:23 am

bookworm007 wrote:Yeah you can put a 2 barrel in the middle but the
offenhauser kit for modifying the log head only supports three one barrel carbs.

Other than some intakes custom made and a few retro fitted from other engines multi carb set ups are mostly used on the log head by milling the top of the intake from there and securing the desired carb to the intake.

The multi carb route has always been very temping for the cool factor and the added performance but as you will notice from first hand accounts it takes more up keep than just a single carb set up.
So if you plan on driving your car daily its something to consider, but on a side note I have heard of plans or set ups where they made the outside carbs able to be shut off. Disconnecting both the fuel and throttle plates would allow the simplicity of a single carb and then when you wanted it the power of multi carbs with the cool factor. It would be super sweet to make them activate off a switch so you could have your own go go button.


Thanks bookworm.. I found that out shortly after I made my previous post. My learning curve is gradually flattening out.. thanks to you and other members here..

The cool factor is my main objective.

CI is coming out with a tri carb manifold. I will be going with their version. The 1v or 2v carb is still up in the air not knowing the total cfm my engine will require at the moment.
My thinking now is to run all three carbs as one. Mainly because I had a 57 Olds with a J2 on it and they all 3 ran as one.
This is not etched in any stone I gots laying around anywhere :mrgreen:

I like the idea of a Image control switch...Image

This will not be my daily driver at all. Just enough to keel it running in good order and car shows..
Think about it:
65 Fast Back 200ci w/ tri carbs.. whoooo and original owner to boot ....2 mo whooooooo :mrgreen:

Keep in mind this is all in the planing stages. I'm depending on members here for input and suggestions that will lead to changes here and there..
But in the end it will have 3 carbs even if 2 are made from balsa wood.. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #30 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:41 am

jdn21758 wrote:hello echo,,i have seen youre topic to,you have an awsome car sir,
be carefull on youre fastback,there not many 6 cil,,and succes with
the triple carb. project.

greetings from the dutch,,,JD,,

and yes i like the humor you got,,i am also use a translation side,,,hahahaha,, :wink:


Back at ya Ol'e Dutch..

Hey I was already driving my car. Then I ran across your build and immediately went on a 3 carb binge ...

"BINGE" English translation: Spending spree... :mrgreen:
Keep us posted wid ya Spending spree... :mrgreen:
:thumbup: :thumbup:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #31 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:50 am

Explorer wrote:I'll throw in one tibit of info on the Holley 390. It worked well out of the box, but with the build in my sig line, had to tweak the vacuum secondary springs. Secondaries were not opening. I just went on and installed the quick change kit for it, as it makes it a lot easier to change the springs. Spring change's were needed to make the transition smooth when the secondaries cut in.


Thank you Explorer. I have been doing a lot of reading on jetting the Holly and the Weber. Apparently you have to re-jet the carb for the application.
I'm still not clear on the process tho. Guess I'll be crossing that bridge when me gets to it... I have noted your adjustments. Until I can determine which carbs to use I will have to wait...

Q: How did you know to make the changes at the vacuum secondary springs.?

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #32 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:04 am

OK this is where I is at this time. I will be taking the engine to a machine shop sometime next week.
Image Image

My plan at this moment:
I will be going with 30 over. Dished pistons: Aluminum heads: RAS Roller-Tipped Rocker Assemblies: DUI ignition: Clay Smith Cam: Dual Roller Timing Chain: Miscellaneous other parts:

I want to look at a build for regular gas and one for premium.
Need lots of help here..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #33 by Explorer » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:35 am

echo1955 wrote:
Explorer wrote:I'll throw in one tibit of info on the Holley 390. It worked well out of the box, but with the build in my sig line, had to tweak the vacuum secondary springs. Secondaries were not opening. I just went on and installed the quick change kit for it, as it makes it a lot easier to change the springs. Spring change's were needed to make the transition smooth when the secondaries cut in.


Thank you Explorer. I have been doing a lot of reading on jetting the Holly and the Weber. Apparently you have to re-jet the carb for the application.
I'm still not clear on the process tho. Guess I'll be crossing that bridge when me gets to it... I have noted your adjustments. Until I can determine which carbs to use I will have to wait...

Q: How did you know to make the changes at the vacuum secondary springs.?

Abandoned Bronco, has a thread on FTE tuning the Holley 390 on his 300ci that I started following. Seeing as the flow numbers on my 200 were about the same, applied that information.
66 Bronco half cab, 203 ci, 9.7:1 comp, CI aluminum head and intake, DSII ignition, Clifford header, Keith Black pistons, Isky 256/256 cam, lifters, chrome moly rings, push rods, Holley 390cfm 4v, 4:11 gears, 3-speed, 30/9.50/15's 18.28mpg pushing a 4000lb brick.
66 Mustang Coupe, 200I6 automatic

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #34 by bubba22349 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:19 pm

Tanks bubba… It took me so long to get back kuz I had to leave the country for a week..
Visiting the grandkids in Cal e forn ya as ol’s swartz calls it..

Think maybe I leave the coil there and run a dummy wire… yes… no????


Yeah I like that just to keep them guessing! :beer: Maybe run the fake extra coil wire into the intake and tell me it's the new Electromagnetic SuperCharger! :rolflmao:

Looks like your engine is in good condistion! :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #35 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:29 pm

bubba22349 wrote:
Tanks bubba… It took me so long to get back kuz I had to leave the country for a week..
Visiting the grandkids in Cal e forn ya as ol’s swartz calls it..

Think maybe I leave the coil there and run a dummy wire… yes… no????


Yeah I like that just to keep them guessing! :beer: Maybe run the fake extra coil wire into the intake and tell me it's the new Electromagnetic SuperCharger! :rolflmao:

Looks like your engine is in good condistion! :thumbup:



heck man your antics are worse than mine. .and mine are really up there..
Now all I has ta do is remember Electromagnetic SuperCharger now that is funny..:rolflmao:

The only reason I want to save the coil is because it is a brand new yellow top. That’s nearly 70 bucks from Mac’s.

The rod bearings looked great. I believe the journals can be polished? I was surprised to see 7 main bearings. I feel better about beefing it up some.
I will know more next week some time..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #36 by bubba22349 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:46 pm

heck man your antics are worse than mine. .and mine are really up there..


It's from living 6 decades around all the crazy wacko’s here in "Cal e forn ya”! :hmmm: You have to do something to keep from going nuts so you have some fun when you can. :thumbup: After years of heath problems decided to build a hot rod six and go play at the drags this year and so have been hunting for some parts too. :nod:

I was surprised to see 7 main bearings. I feel better about beefing it up some.


That is going to be a good one to use! :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #37 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:49 pm

Explorer wrote:
echo1955 wrote:
Explorer wrote:
Q: How did you know to make the changes at the vacuum secondary springs.?

Abandoned Bronco, has a thread on FTE tuning the Holley 390 on his 300ci that I started following. Seeing as the flow numbers on my 200 were about the same, applied that information.


I spent the last couple hours trying to find Abandoned Bronco thread…
Any ideas..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #38 by bubba22349 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:06 am

I spent the last couple hours trying to find Abandoned Bronco thread…
Any ideas..



This post is called: dumping fuel? Don’t know if it’s the right one but has some of his posts with good info on the Holley 4V’s. You can also search for his other posts by his name on the site. Good luck looks like he has many. :hmmm:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/99744 ... -fuel.html

The Holley kit has a quickly removed top cover (screws are on top stock you have to remove secondary can to get to the screws from underneath) so you can swap the springs out faster, you could also make your own if your handy :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #39 by echo1955 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:20 am

Thanks bubba22349..
I’m still learning to navigate this site. I just found Abandoned Bronco’s post by doing exactly as you suggested. Found members thread typed in his name and wala up popped
viewtopic.php?t=58922 which was what I was looking fer..
I will check out the url you posted as well…
Thanks again.. :beer:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #40 by echo1955 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:09 am

I don’t have a carb issue now. I’m just trying to gather as much info on these Weber carbs as possible…………………..just in case. 8)

The problem I’m having is trying to understand how a tri carb set up works.
I understand the motor build will determine the CFM it needs to run correctly at all speeds and conditions.
I won’t have that information until after the machine work is completed.

Meanwhile:

I go here
http://www.4secondsflat.com/Carb_CFM_Calculator.html
When I enter 1 for CI
Engine Displacement Size 200
Maximum Safe Engine RPM 4400
Volumetric Efficiency Of Engine 80 (%)

This tells me I need 203 CFM at 80% and 254 CFM at 100%

Here’s my problem:
If a Weber 34 ICH (1v) gives 150 CFM, does this mean 3 will produce 450 CFM?
If a Weber 23/36 (2v) produces 350 CFM, does this mean 3 will produce 1050 CFM?
And
How will ether one effect the performance....

The up side to my mental dilemma is I gots da time to resolve it.. :mrgreen:
so everyone feel free to chime in. ya ant gona hurt me feelings one iota.. :beer:

Hey dutch, this is just fer you man…
“iota” English translation… an extremely small amount right next to nothing :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #41 by echo1955 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:15 am

OK I have put the carbs on the back burner for the moment: I know I am way ahead of myself but now is a good time to understand some important procedures..

When I close this engine up I will have to start the engine and rev it up to 1500 and 2000 rpm for the first 20 minutes. I understand if I have to shut it down for any reason. I will have to go through priming the oil again.

I will have a new DUI distributor: There is a lot of ""Then"" here so stay wid me..

Q: Can I set initial timing at 14* at the Balancer. Then set the #1 piston on compression cycle to TDC: Then set the rotor to the #1 plug wire. Then hook up vacuum.
Then
Will I be able to start this engine with out problems..?

I plan on blocking the outer 2 carbs with a plate and use my 1v carb to start with along with an electric fuel pump..
If this is a no go procedure, any ideas as to what procedures will give me the best chance at a good engine start.
I'm already concerned about installing the cam. So a good start is needed..

foe some reason my old gun-ho do or die ant what it once was... its mo like woooo wait a minute...wait a minute.. :?

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #42 by JackFish » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:35 am

echo1955 wrote:I understand if I have to shut it down for any reason. I will have to go through priming the oil again.

Q: Can I set initial timing at 14* at the Balancer. Then set the #1 piston on compression cycle to TDC: Then set the rotor to the #1 plug wire. Then hook up vacuum.
Then
Will I be able to start this engine with out problems..?


I don't think it would require re-priming once it's been started, or even turned over a bunch.

I don't see how you can set #1 @TDC and set 14° @ the balancer.
Do you have some sort of crankshaft twisting tool?

And I would not hook up the vacuum during initial run-in.
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Yup, I bought another one.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #43 by FalconSedanDelivery » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:37 am

Easy IF its a points dist , turn the balancer to 14 btdc , make sure its on compression stroke , and poiting at number 1 ,turn on ign , remove dist cap , loosen dist , turn dist clockwise, then stop and turn back , when you see the spark at the points , tighten dist , you can use a test light as well
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #44 by echo1955 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:27 pm

JackFish wrote:
echo1955 wrote:I understand if I have to shut it down for any reason. I will have to go through priming the oil again.

Q: Can I set initial timing at 14* at the Balancer. Then set the #1 piston on compression cycle to TDC: Then set the rotor to the #1 plug wire. Then hook up vacuum.
Then
Will I be able to start this engine with out problems..?


I don't think it would require re-priming once it's been started, or even turned over a bunch.

I don't see how you can set #1 @TDC and set 14° @ the balancer.
Do you have some sort of crankshaft twisting tool?

And I would not hook up the vacuum during initial run-in.


hahahaha man I cant get nuffen past you. I did have a crankshaft twisting tool, but da udder day taking it out of da crate I dropped it on da ground.
Dang if da Johnson rod dun shattered making it useless.. :mrgreen:


I know to set the timing at 14 BTDC.
I ant never seen or heard of a DUI before I came here.. According to the DUI instructions on a new build you set the #1 to tdc then set the rotor to #1 plug. This left me a bit nervous. I cant afford to spend time cranking. Thus the question..

Now you have relieved some of my concerns. Thank you :thumbup:
With out vacuum advance will the engine turn 2000 rpm with out stress..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #45 by echo1955 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:28 pm

FalconSedanDelivery wrote:Easy IF its a points dist , turn the balancer to 14 btdc , make sure its on compression stroke , and poiting at number 1 ,turn on ign , remove dist cap , loosen dist , turn dist clockwise, then stop and turn back , when you see the spark at the points , tighten dist , you can use a test light as well


You sure have taken a load of concern off my mind.
This is something I clearly understand.
I was more than willing to use the stock carb.
Cant believe I failed to consider using the stock dist.

However even if I had chose to use the stock dist, I still would not have known how to set it…
:thumbup: Using the stock dist is the only choice for me. :thumbup:

Thanks again FalconSedanDelivery.. you were a very very big help... :thumbup:
I will have no hesitation pulling the trigger when time comes...

I realize some of my questions are simple no-brainers for old salts. However after so long an absence from engine work, simple conformation has its own value..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #46 by echo1955 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:48 am

After the initial 20-minute break in, how long before you change oil and filter.

What is a good oil to use… on a regular basic for a new build.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #47 by woodbutcher » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:09 am

:) I was always told that after the initial breakin period(20 min at appx 2000 RPM),change the oil and filter after 500 miles.
If this interval has changed,please correct me.
Thanks.
Leo
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Otto von Bismarck

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #48 by bubba22349 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:02 pm

What is a good oil to use… on a regular basic for a new build.


Just about any oil would work you do need to have or add the Zinc (ZDD) content to protect the cam and lifters. :nod: I would also stay from the Snytec type oils until you get some time on the engine so the rings are seated, about 20,000 miles or so.
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #49 by echo1955 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:15 pm

woodbutcher wrote::) I was always told that after the initial breakin period(20 min at appx 2000 RPM),change the oil and filter after 500 miles.
If this interval has changed,please correct me.
Thanks.
Leo


woodbutcher: The last time I had my hands inside an engine block was in 1971, and they were a 350 Chevy a 325 Chevy and One was ether a 260 or 280 something? Ford. These were all performance boat engines. Clay Smith did all the machine work.
His work was unbelievably hospital clean.

So if spec requirement has changed since then I would be the last person to know it…and even if I had known, my current memory bank has changed it’s combination lock and I cant seem to find where I hid it.. :mrgreen:

I was thinking after the 20 min at 2000rpm I would run it for about another 20 minutes at some sort of idle rev idle rev then change the filter..
Your 500 miles I seem to recall was standard on new cars in the 50’s..

This is not a daily driver so 500 mi would likely be several months.?? Good bad dont really know.. Maybe just drive it to break in a quick 500 mi??

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #50 by echo1955 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:26 pm

bubba22349 wrote:
What is a good oil to use… on a regular basic for a new build.


Just about any oil would work you do need to have or add Zinc (ZDD) content to protect the cam and lifters. :nod: I would also stay from the Snytec type oils until you get some time on the engine so the rings are seated, about 20,000 miles or so.



Thanks bubba. Glad you took the time to help me here cuz one thing is for sure, I would have used syntec long before 20,000 mi.
I believe CI has the ZDD additives needed for the break-in...
I know you said just about any oil, but would you be willing to narrow that down to 2 or 3 brands… maybe.. :?
Thanks.

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