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wideband installed

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kirkallen143
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wideband installed

Post #1 by kirkallen143 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:39 am

Howdy All,
Well been working alot of overtime, and had enough to spend on a wideband control, it's a UEGO 30-4100 "stand-alone" gauge. Got it all hooked up and with the 65 jets in it now I idle at 11.4afr and at WOT it is more like 10.0afr. Just barely off the throttle I get a reading of 15-17afr, but once into the throttle it goes down to @ 12afr at cruise. I went ahead and installed the 60jets and the idle is alittle above 11.6afr, and I have not had a chance to check WOT. That's where I'm at so far and as ususal keep ya updated.

Kirk
ps. checked my mpg's the other day and I am getting better than 15 mpg and that is basically city/stop-n-go driving.
And here is basically the finished bronco.

Image
Last edited by kirkallen143 on Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #2 by XFlow_Fairlane » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:49 am

15mpg has to be good for a bronco I would assume. I am suprised to see someone else running smallish jets (I have 62 or 63's in mine right now) I think with a force fed motor that maybe you could run leaning mains and drill the PV channels out a little to fatten it up under boost?
Rule: Torque = Fun , Turbo's make Torque

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Post #3 by kirkallen143 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:41 am

turbo_fairlane_200 wrote:15mpg has to be good for a bronco I would assume. I am suprised to see someone else running smallish jets (I have 62 or 63's in mine right now) I think with a force fed motor that maybe you could run leaning mains and drill the PV channels out a little to fatten it up under boost?


Yes you are right, I now have the pvcr's @ 0.081". I might even restrict the IFR's down about 0.010" and open the ABR's 0.060". It really depends on what the engine's AFR is at WOT w/ the 60 jets in it now. What I really should do is buy the fancy metering block from holley that has all these channels adjustable using bleeds. I believe William (wsa111) is using this metering block now, from one of his pics I've seen.

Kirk

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Post #4 by hasa68mustang » Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:48 pm

so how do you liek the gauge? I have been lookign around for some type of wideband, but I have soo many things to buy...
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According to Matt our cars will be elevnty billion times faster than all of yours because our carbs flow 500cfm!!!!

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Post #5 by XFlow_Fairlane » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:21 pm

well Tommy maybe you need to find yourself a sugga mamma to buy you some car parts.

I was going ot go and progress my blowthrough setup but I am really leaning towards just focusing on a EFI setup on a new motor with mikes new head. going to be going that direction anyway so figured why bother with making the blow through better.....it is still tons of fun to drive as is
Rule: Torque = Fun , Turbo's make Torque

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Post #6 by kirkallen143 » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:16 pm

hasa68mustang wrote:so how do you liek the gauge? I have been lookign around for some type of wideband, but I have soo many things to buy...


Tommy, I just put it in yesterday and so far so good. It is really nice to have an actual number to verify AFR instead of just a line/light going rich to lean. I believe with shipping and all from e-bay it was $256.00.

Kirk

Linc's 200

Post #7 by Linc's 200 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:19 am

Glad you got one!

kirkallen143 wrote: I believe with shipping and all from e-bay it was $256.00


You stole it... :wink:

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Post #8 by kirkallen143 » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:16 pm

After I jetted down to #60's, the WOT still runs in the 10's on AFR and I can get it to cruise around 14ish only at certain throttle positions. Just barely touching the throttle gives the 14.5-14.9 AFR, but I still get that fluctuation of the gauge, bouncing b/tw 13.4 to 17 AFR readings during normal cruise. Could this be a fluttering PV, it is only at about 2-3psi of boost when it happens. I still have the 6.5 PV in there and it is good last time I checked. Would a bad PV read this way, fluctuating like that on the gauge? Linc, any ideas?

Kirk

Linc's 200

Post #9 by Linc's 200 » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:43 pm

kirkallen143 wrote: Could this be a fluttering PV, it is only at about 2-3psi of boost when it happens. I still have the 6.5 PV in there and it is good last time I checked. Would a bad PV read this way, fluctuating like that on the gauge? Linc, any ideas?


No, The power valve opens at 6.5 inches of vacuum, so any lower vacuum and into boost that sucker is wide open, no fluttering.

It could be any number of things, from bad intake manifold distribution to turbulence over the carb bleeds. If it drives fine I wouldn't get too worried about the numbers.

Linc's 200

Post #10 by Linc's 200 » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:45 pm

Where is your wideband sensor at??? It needs to be about 3-4 feet downstream of the turbine

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Post #11 by kirkallen143 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:44 am

Linc's 200 wrote:Where is your wideband sensor at??? It needs to be about 3-4 feet downstream of the turbine


Really? I have it about 12" from the turbine. Could the be a gauge/o2 sensor local, huh. I'll move it on down stream and try it then. Thanks Linc for the heads up.

Kirk

Linc's 200

Post #12 by Linc's 200 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:22 pm

You probably didn't hurt it, but wideband O2's can't hack the heat like a stock one can.

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Post #13 by kirkallen143 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:18 pm

Over at TurboMustangs forum, they go from 6" and to back behind the tranny on their o2 location. It really all depends on what the sensor can handle temp-wise. No one really had a set distance from the turbo back.

Kirk

Linc's 200

Post #14 by Linc's 200 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:33 pm

from this website:
http://wbo2.com/lsu/default.htm

" Sensors should be placed so they are not overheated (gas temp not above 750 °C, nor cooled beyond the ability of the heater to maintain their working temperature (~10 Watts). "

Linc's 200

Post #15 by Linc's 200 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:34 pm

750C =1382F

Pretty easy to go over that on a hard run if too close to the turbo

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Post #16 by kirkallen143 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:25 am

Linc's 200 wrote:750C =1382F

Pretty easy to go over that on a hard run if too close to the turbo


I found the install directions yesterday and it says to have the sensor at least 3 foot behind the turbo. I will do and see if it changes anything, hopefully that might be the oscillating problem I have now w/ the gauge. Appreciate the help Linc, I owe you a cold one or a bottle of vodka (those russian women...WOW). Later.

Kirk

Linc's 200

Post #17 by Linc's 200 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:21 am

I don't know if it'll change anything as far as the readings, but it'll make the sensor last longer.

Lol...I drive through Navasota all the time but am usually in a hurry to get from one place to another.....one of these days!

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Post #18 by kirkallen143 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:21 am

Howdy,

Started playing with the idle air mix screws, upped the idle to @ 800rpm, now it is idling at 13.7:1 AFR (14.7:1 is optimum)...I can live with that. This is w/ the #60 jets. Now I have that little flat spot, again, when you hit the throttle, so back to the squirter (there is a 0.028" in it now).

Hey on a side note, if you need anything, and I mean anything for a holley carb, go to www.blp.com. They even have a sleeve for when you strip out the squirter threads as I have done before on the 500 cfm holley I used to have on this engine. If I would have known before, it would have saved me buying this carb I have now...$7.00 vs. $259.00.

Kirk
ps. and yes the clearence on the pump arm is to spec--0.010" to 0.015" gap

Linc's 200

Post #19 by Linc's 200 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:42 pm

kirkallen143 wrote: yes the clearence on the pump arm is to spec--0.010" to 0.015" gap


I think I usually set mine to zero. been a while.

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Post #20 by kirkallen143 » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:49 pm

Linc's 200 wrote:
kirkallen143 wrote: yes the clearence on the pump arm is to spec--0.010" to 0.015" gap


I think I usually set mine to zero. been a while.


Heck that might work, because the lean spot is right when you hit the accelerator then is comes down to @ 13.9:1 immediatly after. Maybe just need that extra shot sooner.

I am going to go ahead and restrict the IFR's (Idle Feed Restrictors) with some 0.010" brass rod I have and then open the IAB's (Idle Air Bleeds) to compensate. If I am getting too rich while cruising the upper rpms, then I will have to open up the HSAB's (High Speed Air Bleeds) to allow no extra fuel until say 2800-2900 rpm. I'll let ya know what happens.

Kirk

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Post #21 by MustangSix » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:06 am

kirkallen143 wrote:Howdy,

Started playing with the idle air mix screws, upped the idle to @ 800rpm, now it is idling at 13.7:1 AFR (14.7:1 is optimum)...I can live with that.


Actually, best idle will be a bit rich, especially at lower speeds. 14.7 AFR is too lean for a good consistent idle. You are right on with 13.7.
Jack Collins

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Post #22 by kirkallen143 » Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:05 am

Doing some research on the holleys and came across the tech section and they say to reference your PV to manifold vacuum for boost applications. You have to drill into the vacuum cavity of the PV on the main body side, jb weld the original hole at the bottom of the cavity, and attach a hose barb and run it to a manifold vacuum source under the throttle blades. A few have done this over at TurboMustangs' forum and had good luck with it. It gives a stronger signal to the PV to help it work correctly under boosted applications (seems to help the part-throttle lean fuel mixture situations). I am getting around to doing this, as soon as work lets up.

Kirk
ps. on vacation next week, I'll get a few things done then

Linc's 200

Post #23 by Linc's 200 » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:58 am

Actually, three things:

1) the hole under the carb that goes to the PV is already seeing manifold vacuum

2) they are using modified power valves that stay closed until you hit boost.

3) That mod idn't necessary until you start running rediculous boost levels, like Brent is at 28 psi.

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Post #24 by kirkallen143 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:10 pm

Howdy,

Well, I went ahead and re-referenced the PV to a manifold source under the carb body. I just used the original timed/vac port that the metering block already had. What I did was to jb-weld the original source/hole in the PV cavity, and the one in the carb base used for the timed/vac port. Then got out the roto-zip and trenched out @ 1/2"long x 1/8"deep line, in the metering block from the original timed port passage just passed where the edge of PV cavity is. That's done.

Now I am restricting the IFR's (idle feed restrictors) w/ a 0.008" aluminum wire (single strand of 18 gauge speaker wire) and I have drilled and tapped (10-32 UNF) the IAB's (idle air bleeds) for removable bleeds. The stock size of the IFR's are 0.028" on a holley #7448 - 350cfm and the IAB's are 0.070". By restricting the IFR 0.008", I will have to compensate and also restrict the IAB (from 0.070" down to 0.054" (this is just a starting point)). All this, just to try and get better driving characteristics from the turbo engine. Lean at idle/cruise and light load, and then richen up during WOT.

I did try to make it run with only restricting the IFR's and not the IAB's, and it would not idle under 2000 rpm, even with the air/fuel mixture screws out 4 - 5 turns. So that proves it does work. Now once the airbleeds come in, that I ordered, I can get this carb the way it should be...hopefully. Let y'all know more later.

Kirk

ps. the reason I did not just put a wire in the IAB's to restrict them in the first place is because, I did this without my notes I remind you, I thought you had to drill/open up the IAB's while restricting the IFR's...well at least I did have a 10-32 UNF tap on hand.

bigjhoov

Post #25 by bigjhoov » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:32 am

Kirk, can you answer this?

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=267479#267479

Are you going to Hot Springs?

Jerry

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Post #26 by kirkallen143 » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:32 pm

bigjhoov wrote:Kirk, can you answer this?

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=267479#267479

Are you going to Hot Springs?

Jerry


Hey Jerry,

Yeah, just use brass pipe plugs (don't forget the teflon) and my registration goes in the mail today for Hot Springs. Have a good one buddy.

Kirk

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Post #27 by kirkallen143 » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:52 pm

Got everything buttoned up yesterday and tuned in...TALK ABOUT A DIFFERENT ANIMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good Lord, there is a change in performance b/tw running too rich and then just right. Nice crisp take-offs now, and also when coming out of a corner with low rpms and say in 2nd gear, very smooth transition, no bogging or hesitation.

I did re-reference the vacuum source to the PV as you all know and now no more lean spike just off the throttle, YES! It idles at @ 12.5 :1 AFR, cruises at @ 14:1 AFR and WOT is at @ 10.5 : 1 AFR(still on the rich side, 11.5 to 12 :1 is ideal). I restricted the IFR's down w/ 0.016" wire and then went down only to 0.059" on the IAB's (could use a little more though, only 3/4 of a turn out on the idle mixture screws) I think I need to be out more turns with the idle mixture screws, because when coasting or slowing down from highway speed w/ foot off the throttle the gauge reads lean (up to 16.5 - 17 : 1 AFR). With more fuel in the idle circuit this just might solve the lean issue. I will go with the 0.049" air bleeds next and let you know. Have a good one

Kirk

Linc's 200

Post #28 by Linc's 200 » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:57 pm

kirkallen143 wrote: I think I need to be out more turns with the idle mixture screws, because when coasting or slowing down from highway speed w/ foot off the throttle the gauge reads lean (up to 16.5 - 17 : 1 AFR).


NO!! Don't mess with it, its supposed to do that!

Lean condition on deceleration is 100% normal!

Just worry about the mixture when accelerating,
deceleration has nothing to do with anything.

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Post #29 by XFlow_Fairlane » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:32 pm

hmm maybe I need to get that wideband off my buddy and get my holley dialed in better. so kirk you said you had a lean spot at part throttle? I am feeling like I have one there on my current tune. it will pull fine under boost but if you give enough throttle to accelerate but out of boost it feels lean (surges a little and weak, no bog though as if it was rich) after driving my car this weekend I think I really need to push for the EFI on it.
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Post #30 by kirkallen143 » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:14 am

Had alittle time yesterday to mess with the bronco, tried the #57 jets-- idle was OK, not enough fuel at part throttle and cruise (reading @ 16:1 AFR on gauge) and would not start without hitting the accelerator. Then went up to #59 jets better quality idle w/ mixture screws out 1 1/4 turns, reading mid 13's on the AFR gauge, but still cruise was running in the 15's on the wideband. So I just put the #60 jets back in, w/ a 6.5 PV, and restricted the pvcr's (currently drilled to 0.080") with @ 0.024" aluminum wire, and now my WOT is up around into the 11's on the gauge, and cruise is in the 14:1 (+/-) area. I also put the 0.028" squirter back in and it seems to help cover up some of the off-idle bog/hesitation I have when easing into the throttle.
Now all it wants to do is break the back tires loose, so it must be running purty good.

Kirk

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Post #31 by kirkallen143 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:29 am

Good morning,

Well last night after my four kids were asleep, took the bronco for a couple of WOT runs. AFR is right at 10.2:1. What would be a better approach to get this # up to @ 11.5:1?
I have the pvcr's drilled to 0.080", then restricted them with three 0.008"aluminum wires twisted togethter, should I add more? Jetting is right on and does not like either direction I go. What do y'all think, restrict the pvcr's more, huh.

Kirk
ps. the acceleration from this turbo made me feel like I was in my old '77 Z-28 w/ 350hp, now that was a ride. The hard part is trying to keep this bronco out of the ditches.

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Post #32 by Does10s » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:14 am

Ya Kirk, 10.2:1 is a bit fat! Need to shoot for around 12:1.
Will
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'86 Mustang, Turbocharged, Best ET: 10.70@132.
'69 Mustang Sportsroof, 351w, auto
'63 Falcon, Turbocharged 250, C4, 9", Best ET: 10.64@127mph 11/21/14

Linc's 200

Post #33 by Linc's 200 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:34 pm

Does10s wrote:Ya Kirk, 10.2:1 is a bit fat! Need to shoot for around 12:1.
Will


I wouldn't go as lean as 12:1. That would be great if it was NA, but boosted should be a little richer.

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Post #34 by kirkallen143 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:47 pm

Linc's 200 wrote:
Does10s wrote:Ya Kirk, 10.2:1 is a bit fat! Need to shoot for around 12:1.
Will


I wouldn't go as lean as 12:1. That would be great if it was NA, but boosted should be a little richer.


Yes Sir, I was looking for nothing above 11.5:1 AFR at WOT. This 200 doesn't like running lean at all, he misses a beat every once in a while, if you know what I mean.

Well, off to buy some bigger brass and/or aluminum rod.

Kirk

Linc's 200

Post #35 by Linc's 200 » Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:29 am

kirkallen143 wrote:Well, off to buy some bigger brass and/or aluminum rod.



Guitar strings?

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Post #36 by kirkallen143 » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:32 am

Well, I turned the boost up on the bronco yesterday (one full turn of the internal wastegate actuator arm from the diaphram) and I can tell you this engine combo did not like it. Sounded like a bunch of little tiny hammers inside the block, the vacuum gauge was reading funny, and way lean on the AFR at WOT. I just did it to see what it would do...and then I turned the boost back down.

First, I should of retarded the timing down to 20* to 22* total from 27* total, richened up the mixture (jetted it up) and then I think I would have been able to handle the more psi.

Actually, I like the 10 psi I am at now, with the bigger boost the psi came in too fast and made the bronco's manners less driveable. It was fun though, like all it wanted to do was haul a$$, it was hammer down or nothing at all. Now I know where to set it when it is time for another sand-drag race. God, I love this turbo stuff.

Kirk

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Post #37 by XFlow_Fairlane » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:45 am

that is why I love the early 2.3L turbo'd cars with the T3's on them. set at the factory 8psi the t3 is doggy.....crankit up into the "sweet spot" and they nearly double their power!!

I can see a turbo being fun on sand drags....power comes up as you gain traction and get moving..

PS I want to see some turbo muddin action!!!
Rule: Torque = Fun , Turbo's make Torque

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Post #38 by hasa68mustang » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:47 pm

kirkallen143 wrote:God, I love this turbo stuff.


me tooo I think Im gonna get a video of the stang in action today. we'll see how it does.
Image

According to Matt our cars will be elevnty billion times faster than all of yours because our carbs flow 500cfm!!!!

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