My 200 EFI Turbo build ('65 Econoline)

R

RichCreations

Well-known member
I am starting my engine build, and will have a ton of questions I am sure. I have a 200 block, fresh from the machine shop, it has been bored .030, decked .002, and new (stock) dished pistons, still waiting on a few things before getting the crank ground/balanced. I have a large log(?) head I will be using, not sure exactly which "large log" it is though, that has never been milled, so compression should be fairly low. I plan to run a stock cam, with some stronger valve springs.

as for feeding it, Ford CFI throttle body w/injectors from a t-bird, a holley 2bl - 1bl adapter, turbo from a saab 900, coil packs and module from a mitsubishi, a custom trigger wheel, fuel pump from a volvo, and a Speeduino DIY ECU (think somewhere between Megasquirt 1 and 2 or so).

I am hoping to get 140-150HP out of it (I think that will be just enough to get over hills at reasonable speeds).

Any comments, suggestions?
 
Did you ever consider using a Tempo CFI instead? That might be easier to bolt onto the log head directly.

Your project looks interesting, I'll be following this for sure.
 
Did you ever consider using a Tempo CFI instead? That might be easier to bolt onto the log head directly.

Your project looks interesting, I'll be following this for sure.
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I have not seen the Tempo CFI, but the T-bird/Mustang/CrownVic one I am using mounts the same as a holley 2bl, for which adapters are easy to get, and has injectors just about perfectly sized for my needs. Down the road, I intend to modify my log to mount the throttle body directly. As a plus, it was $35...
 
getting a engine "balanced" is totally useless for under 5k rpm,s why not just stick a good carb on it and keep it simple.
 
getting a engine "balanced" is totally useless for under 5k rpm,s why not just stick a good carb on it and keep it simple.
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Well, balancing does have some effect on longevity, you are the first that did not suggest doing it (nor is it that expensive/hard), as for the EFI, I am mostly using it because I have it all, I am a minor contributor to the Speeduino project, and sorta need a vehicle running it.

I don't have a good carb, just an old worn out carter yf, and I wanted to do something different (has anyone done an EFI/Turbo small six in an econoline?), and being able to adjust the tune with a laptop, while driving sounds nice (vs the cramped/hot, impossible to work in easily, econoline dog box).
 
That is a unique and cool project and I am sure it is a first. Given any thought to no distributor and using a trigger wheel and coil pack? A member on here chronicled this procedure on his Falcon. Look for the thread by "the same guy".
Also if you had the Handbook you could id your head.
 
bmbm40":v7mmd2xq said:
That is a unique and cool project and I am sure it is a first. Given any thought to no distributor and using a trigger wheel and coil pack? A member on here chronicled this procedure on his Falcon. Look for the thread by "the same guy".
Also if you had the Handbook you could id your head.
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From Above:

...coil packs and module from a mitsubishi, a custom trigger wheel...
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The dizzy will still be there, for the oil pump drive only, until I make a drive stub out of it.
 
You can use the 2.3 stub in place of the distributor only slight mod required. Good luck :nod:
 
when it breaks down on side of the road you,ll throw that lap top at it. if you keep it simple if you do have a problem you can find it quickly, get parts at local auto parts and be back on your way. only other alternative is if complicated call a rollback.......................
 
BCOWANWHEELS":3nm95oop said:
when it breaks down on side of the road you,ll throw that lap top at it. if you keep it simple if you do have a problem you can find it quickly, get parts at local auto parts and be back on your way. only other alternative is if complicated call a rollback.......................
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You are aware that local parts places sell parts for fuel injected cars as well? I am not using anything "hard to find". Besides, EFI has made cars more reliable, not less. And no, I won't throw the laptop at it, I will plug it in, and be told what is wrong in seconds...

To each their own, for me the flexibility of EFI is worth it, cost is about the same, and for "ME" EFI will be "easier" YMMV.

Need a custom/non linear advance curve, done! Oh that was not right, let me try again, done!

Can't get mixture correct through the entire RPM/Throttle/Boost range? no prob, thats what 3D AFR maps are for...

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against carbs, I have not owned a car that did not have carb/points for the last 25 years. I do however want to run EFI, I have the skills to do so (and fix it on the side of the road).
 
Rich Creations, love your ideas and work, don't give up on your dreams, go an do it, but be aware.


BCOWANWHEELS":2ca99sc2 said:
when it breaks down on side of the road you,ll throw that lap top at it. if you keep it simple if you do have a problem you can find it quickly, get parts at local auto parts and be back on your way. only other alternative is if complicated call a rollback.......................
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Amen Bob. My WC34 Nissan Stagea 4WD is stuck at the resthome, my wife is uber hacked off with me, and its happened to me in both the two 1996 RAV4's I've owned, the 83 CFI Toyota Corona, the 82 Corona, but not my Falcon 4.1 or 3.3 Mustang or 4.0 Explorer. Selah. Think on that, everyone.

My testimony as a busy engineering technician

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=74445&p=572342#p572342

I prayed and used invocations to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jakob, and to the person who claimed to be the Messiah in anno mundi 3760, but guess what, my car is still dead...


Nobody has the skills to fix solid state parts and components when they go wrong in the field. No one. You'll be road kill if you think you can. You can't self crank an EFI from the engine bay, and check the EFI pump, so there is no way you can self diagnose unless you use Tuner Shop to hook up to MeqaSquirt to then go through the processes.



I know Ford tests its cars for Death Valley heat and Rocky Mountain altidue and Alaska cold, but its still no guarentee that a modern electronic car won't leave you stranded. Its more likely to hanppen with a homebuilt EFI system too. Not that you shouldn't try, just be aware that when the key parts fail, you have to put on your big boy technolgost pants and come on here or the Megasquirt forum, and get some help!

Thats why NASSA had a ground support crew of rocket scientists to help out. Anyone who goes the road of EFI, ahs to embrace the on call people to help them out when, and not if, you get stranded.

You can't have a helicopter air lift an EDIS module or a MAP sensor or fix the prox sensor for the crank...been there, done that. Anyone who thinks they can fix it on the side of the road is in la la land. No disrepspct, just the truth. Your parts inventory for fixing it spans 25 sensors...

I'm not totally anti OBDI or OBDII, but although the EFI and Durapsark III/TFI/EDIS engines run sweet and clean and have a nice torque and power curve, they are the spawn of S@+@n when they go wrong. You'll then need WIFI, and a good cell phone to ring for a tilt truck.

Electronics don't improve the overall reliabity, they just create another labyrinth of On Board Diagnostic tests to perform. And when it breaks down, and it will, it WILL leave you stranded. Happened to me many times. But if its an old carburated Duraspark electronic ignition Ford, it'll be dead reliable if you use Ford replacment parts and follow the wiring rules.

Everyone should be aware, running full electronics will not make your car more reliable. My 81 Mustang was totally turn key and reliable. And emissions era car with 85 emissions devices, but it would always run becasue Ford engineers are the greatest in the world.


Anything after 1986 will be a potential candiate for FORD sydrome.

Found
Off
Road
Dead


I've had 28 cars, and anything modern will trip out an Air Fuel Meter, MAF/MAP, TPS, Crank Sensor, Electric Fuel pump.

Toyotas, Nissans are the worst. My 98 Explorer was totally reliable, but that's not typical.


Everything has earths which require continuty, and relays and fuses, and then there is the normal Duraspark/TFI/EDIS diagonstics. Add another electronic system, and it will improve day to day running, but add a potentail vector for being stranded. Get a problem, and you have to check all those sub systems out in the field. At night. In a dodgey neighbourhood. Hope you now friendly people....
 
Nobody has the skills to fix solid state parts and components when they go wrong in the field.
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Well, considering i built my ecu (not megasquirt), with a soldering iron, a multi-meter, a usb oscilloscope, and my laptop, (all are in my toolkit, in the vehicle at all times) and a radio shack/frys, I could easily repair it (it has no exotic/hard to find parts). Everything else i am using would be easily available at any auto parts shop.

Your parts inventory for fixing it spans 25 sensors
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HUH? This is not OEM emissions compliment EFI, for sensors I have Crank position, throttle position, Air temp, coolant temp, map, and wideband o2, and it will run without most of those, though not perfectly depending on which failed, it needs either TPS or MAP to run, only needs both for things like acceleration enrichment, will run without temps, by using worst case values. I will keep an extra CPS in the glovebox, as that is the only sensor it will not run without.

I am a mechanic for a living, dabble with electronics as a hobby, and fully understand what I am getting myself into. As I already mentioned, I contribute to the project for the ECU I am using, and need a "test vehicle" anyway...

I think that to a lot of people EFI is "scary" or "hard to fix" mostly because they don't understand it, or how to properly diagnose it, I used to be the same way...

Yet, I have had "simple" systems be just as hard to diagnose.

And I have been stranded by a failed duraspark box, by burnt points, failed condensers, carb issues, failed mechanical fuel pumps, voltage regulators, and more.
Get a problem, and you have to check all those sub systems out in the field. At night. In a dodgey neighbourhood.
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Well, at least with an early econoline, the engine is next to the driver seat, can do all that testing without getting out of my seat...
 
If you tell us the casting numbers on your head someone could give you the details on it.
I used to own a 65 Econoline pick-up, wish I still had it.
 
If you tell us the casting numbers on your head someone could give you the details on it.
I used to own a 65 Econoline pick-up, wish I still had it.
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I will go look at the casting # now...

I like the pickups, my buddy as a 63, but I love my window van (ex Ma Bell van)
 
LOL. Its all good. The MS computer is a good one...a speed density system, so if your quick you can replace the 3 or 4 bar MAP sensor with a 12v cigarette or propane heated soldering bolt...


If your usig the throttle body twin point system that bolts on to the early Silent Shaft 2-bbl carb mount, using a Karmen Vortex system from the Sirius engined Mitsubishi Motors 1.8 or 2.0, its even more simple.


And yeah, a lot less than 25 to 40 polling sensors like the OBD compliant stuff.

Incidently (and I'm a good diagnstic technician now after eight years of EFI pre OBD Toyota enlightenment), the Stagea got towed and the two techncians are working on it as we speak. There was no fuel pump activity, but all 19 relays and 34 fuses were okay. Checked the Variable Valve Timing Cam actuator, the Timing Belt, the Crank position sensor, the Air Fuel Meter vane, the TPS, the Spark to spark plugs.

The shop manager sort of laughed. Pre OBDII with no 25 pin plug you say. Yeah. No problem, we'll find the part thats stopped working. Last customer baulked at the 950 fee for finding which 75 dollar sensor stopped there late model, but pre OBDII car working, should be cheaper than that...100 dollars for towing, 775 dollars for two technicians to find the fault, then dissassemble and replace the timing actuator. Pretty expensive for a P0010 fault anyone can find in a self diagostic post 1995 car.


Any way, if you've got a 65, you'll have the same C1 casting head I fited to my 81 Mustang. You can fit any kind of CFI system to it, but the Tempo/Topaz/Tracer throttle body injection is Chrylser/Nissan/Geo in operation, not the same as the 2-bbl CFI used in the 82-85 3.8's and 5.0's from 1980 to 1985. The adaptor to make it work is a direct mount or a simple adaptor plate to fit it to the earlier log head. airbert made one for his 61 Falcon.

There are also space limitations to fitting one of the Motorcraft single or 2-bbl TBi in the dog house. Nothing a little hammer time wouldn't fix...
 
LOL. Its all good. The MS computer is a good one...a speed density system, so if your quick you can replace the 3 or 4 bar MAP sensor with a 12v cigarette or propane heated soldering bolt...


And yeah, a lot less than 25 to 40 polling sensors like the OBD compliant stuff.

Incidently (and I'm a good diagnstic technician now after eight years of EFI pre OBD Toyota enlightenment), the Stagea got towed and the two techncians are working on it as we speak. There was no fuel pump activity, but all 19 relays and 34 fuses were okay. Checked the Variable Valve Timing Cam actuator, the Timing Belt, the Crank position sensor, the Air Fuel Meter vane, the TPS, the Spark to spark plugs.

The shop manager sort of laughed. Pre OBDII with no 25 pin plug you say. Yeah. No problem, we'll find the part thats stopped working. Last customer baulked at the 950 fee for finding which 75 dollar sensor stopped there late model, but pre OBDII car working, should be cheaper than that...100 dollars for towing, 775 dollars for two technicians to find the fault, then dissassemble and replace the timing actuator. Pretty expensive for a P0010 fault.
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Yeah, I think the pre-ODB, and ODB-1 cars gave fuel injection a bad name, diagnose by replacing everything one part at a time till it works... Far from what I am doing.

Nothing wrong with MS, just not really what I wanted to do either, I am using a very simple ECU called Speeduino, it is fully open source, DIY, etc, it can do speed density, or alpha-n...
 
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