Click Here -> Please Consider Making a PayPal Contribution to the FordSix Forum!
2019 Contributors:
NJwpod, 1strodeo, mightynorseman, maxtrux, 6d7coupe, broncr, Phase3, 68Flareside240, bmbm40,
mustang6, WorldChampGramp, justintendo, BigBlue94, ags290, motorsickle1130, Rooster, ousooner919, ethanperry
rzcrisis, DoctorC, jamyers, Motorboy, fastpat, Silverback280, chad


<<< New Site Update >>>

Cam Sensor on 2.3 /2.5 HSC engines?

Moderator: Mod Squad

Inliner
VIP Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 11:15 pm
Location: Sierra Vista, Arizona

Cam Sensor on 2.3 /2.5 HSC engines?

Post #1 by Inliner » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:47 am

Anyone know where it's located? Supposedly it's in the block near the distributor on the later (90s) sequential EFI versions of these Tempo/Topaz/Taurus engines. I'm just curious how Ford added a cam sensor to these engines and if it's at all adaptable to the Falcon engine.
John

User avatar
xctasy
VIP Member
Posts: 6890
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 10:40 am
Location: PO Box 7072 Dunedin 9011,South Island, NEW ZEALAND
Contact:

Re: Cam Sensor on 2.3 /2.5 HSC engines?

Post #2 by xctasy » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:13 am

The 2.3/2.5 OHV I4 Fords (the Erika) were largly Australian tall deck 221 I6 and 250 I6 based, with a taller deck 8.660 and 9.38" than the7.803" 200. I'm certain the TFi igntion was used throughout, with the TFi distributor acting as an almost EDIS system with just three lines of code and one crank sensor required to make it EDIS. HSC's and HSO's were the utimate economy engine...Ford spent years making them woirk well, way before there introduction in 1984. They were supposed to be CVHH engines like Honda's Stratified Charge 3 bbl 1.335, 1.602 and 1.819 liter engines, but Ford couldn't make them as cheaply or as good as the Honda engines, even through both auto makers worked together on them for a two year period.

The good thing is the 2.3/2.5 OHC I4 Fords (the Lima) share a similar pilot shaft, only on EAO Pinto/CapriS and Limas, its layshaft driven, not cam shaft driven, but its almost 100% the same thing. so a later model OHC shaft can be used as a plug.

XFlow_Fairlane and thesameguy did a full write-up on how to make a Falcon EDIS or TFi, as both systems can run off the distributor as a trigger if they have to. This was done in the Cologne V6 4.0's used in the early revised 96/97 Explorers and some Rangers. Ford coul;dn't get rid of those systems quick enough, and a 3.8 Essex V6 crank trigger with a 2.3 Lima blanking off plug with a Megajolt control box should be everyones go to list.

The issue is that the square wave form on a half speed camshaft run off a constatly loose timing chain makes a huge spark scatter. Ford got away with it on the TFi Sequential Injected 5.0 Mustangs with Port EFi, but its rare to make a cam sensor work that good unless you go for a crank triggered system.


One of the big bug bears with in line sixes is the bad idle quality. With EDIS and a crank triggger, and a cam to oil pump shaft plug, its rock steady.

The TFi is around for I6's, Bosch Australia made them for Ford, , and they were used from 1985 to 1993, and can be raided from an old junked Australian Falcon 3.3/4.1 or OHC 3.2 or 3.9. The pilot shaft is 0.495 instead of 0.530 like the US 1964.5 TO 1983 small sixes, but it runs off Spout and PIP logic that is run off the EECIV. They have a TFi module, and totally electronic spark advance.


The TFi module is very smart, but it has some issues with not being well understood. PIP, SPOUT, POUT.....Its essentially a very good way of doing away with a crank position sensor, but has the core architecture to drive EDIS 6 off an Essex 3.8 90 degree V6.



The Cologne 4.0 liter OHV 60 degree V6 was something of a hybridised system. The SOHC, due to spark scatter, was upgraded to use EDIS6
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

User avatar
xctasy
VIP Member
Posts: 6890
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 10:40 am
Location: PO Box 7072 Dunedin 9011,South Island, NEW ZEALAND
Contact:

Re: Cam Sensor on 2.3 /2.5 HSC engines?

Post #3 by xctasy » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:45 am

viewtopic.php?f=98&t=67718&p=523710#p523710

"Ford EDIS" post

Started Post #1 by thesameguy » Tue Mar 27, 2012
thesameguy wrote: » Thu May 28, 2015
Just use the plug from a 2.3l Mustang with DIS - the posts about the mods that need to be done to it are about 2/3rds of the way down this page
Image


XFlow_Fairlane wrote: #11 by XFlow_Fairlane » Wed Jun 27, 2012
yet again I point out the easy and cheap fix....

cam sensor from a 2.3L OHC ford.....they are about $50 new

press off the 2.3L pump drive gear and press on a 200 gear and drill for the pin.

done.

or if you want a locked dizzy....

2.3L OHC dizzy
swap gears as above
install a reluctor of a batch fire V6 ford (CFI 3.8L cars have these)
install V6 cap from a 6 cylinder TFI equiped ford.

This will give you a drop in TFI module distributor for EFI (I would skip the megajolt and just put in a MS1 with this....could got to EFI with just more wiring at this point)
Rule: Torque = Fun , Turbo's make Torque
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

Inliner
VIP Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 11:15 pm
Location: Sierra Vista, Arizona

Re: Cam Sensor on 2.3 /2.5 HSC engines?

Post #4 by Inliner » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:28 pm

xctasy - Thanks for the link, and I always learn something reading your posts. Yes, crank wheel and trigger is the way to go, but I'm still curious about how Ford fitted the cam pos sensor on the "Erika" (hadn't seen that name before). If nothing else, just for anything that might want the two inputs.
John

User avatar
xctasy
VIP Member
Posts: 6890
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 10:40 am
Location: PO Box 7072 Dunedin 9011,South Island, NEW ZEALAND
Contact:

Re: Cam Sensor on 2.3 /2.5 HSC engines?

Post #5 by xctasy » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:41 am

See http://www.myo-p.com/Ford-EEC/EEC%20Hel ... black.html


There are many cars that have had an ECM melt down that are running on about 18 degrees of total timing base timing, plus 10 degrees from the distibtor. ....TFi is designed to handshake with the EECIV module. If you grab a MeagaJolt, it will control the timing like EECIV does. Some EECIV's had an external timing system, so did the old Durasaprk III and Yellow Strain Durasaprk II.

The bare minimum to run a TFi is by finding a six cylinder TFi, and running a 60 pin Speed DensityEFi EECIV with the non critical parts gutted out. I'd keep the basic systems so you can cross check it, but MegaJolt will do it all for less time and less money than messing about with a Frontal Lobotmy on an "EEK Four" ECM


The Thick Film Ignition system generates the spark via a cheap solid state integrated circuit or microchip with an EPROM. Like the Bubble Memory in an old HP 41 Calculator or Psion Organiser the old GT Tech 3 hand controller was based on, the timing code is burnt on to a chip, and the distributor curve is an electroinic 0 and 1 lookup table. If my MAP pressure and Engine Speed is this, whats my SPARKOUT total advance now?


The square wave that triggers the timed release of the spark is from the hexagonal lobe driven by the cam shaft on a conventional Ford I6 six...on the TFi, its driven right off a cut out wheel, and its totally square wave with each plip, but there are six plips.


On the 2.3 and 2.5 OHV engines, its just a four lobe system. You can run a TFi module off a normal 1968 to 1973 In line six Autolite Igntion system. The Durasaprk I and II uses adifferent trigger. TheHSC 2.3/ HSO 2.3 HSO 2.5 uses a system that will need a six plug distributor cap, and the spark timing has to suit the sqaure wave form.

The Durasaprk is variable reluctor, which isn't really easy to match with TFi. Didgital control is 0 and 1 codes into a computer ECM by low voltages. Most car Digital Systems are feed by Analogue systems, variable voltage changes. When Ford dreamed up the TFI, it had already done it before with the truley excellent CFi EECIII, the Durasaprk III system in the 1980 to 1984 5.0 non High Output engines. That system had a crank sensor.


Soooo, you can mix and match , or Pick'n'mix whatever, but you can run a motorbike off TFi if you organise the trigger system. Points, Pertronics, crank Sensor, or a reworked Duraspark converted to a points trigger, or just a TFi unit from an Even Fire V6 or 4.9 Big Six. Module failure is rare, despite the bad press. Its normally the internal pickup or another problem, although just once in a while, a TFi modue does go out of service, so people should consider keeeping a spare around Just In Case....

http://www.49ccscoot.com/manuals/FORD%20TFI%20electronic%20ignition.pdf wrote:Of all the digital ignition modules used in automotive
applications the Ford TFI is the only common module that fires on the negative to positive transition of the trigger waveform. Since point ignition systems 'fire' at the same time they can be a good triggering device for the TFI ignition module. Just visit the local auto salvage yard and
get several gray REMOTE mount Ford TFI modules along with the heat sink, and plug-in. Cut off as much of the harness as possible with the plug to the module. It is important toget a remote-mount TFI module and heat sink pair like the one pictured. The earlier TFI model mounted directly to the
distributor was subject to damage by engine heat. Though it will work it is more difficult to mount requiring fabrication of a heat sink, and may be damaged.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests