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Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Moderator: Mod Squad

Grasshopper
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Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #1 by Grasshopper » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:40 pm

After long meditation and research i have a plan together to turbo my ol' angry buzzin half dozen. The plan includes a multiport fuel injection obd1 eec-v (with the stock computer) 300 to be run on 93 octane with a remote mounted turbo located at the factory y pipe spot aka about even with the oil pan and in between it and the frame rail tucked up and out of the way. The T04E turbo specs are a compressor A/R of .50 an inducer/exducer of 50.5/76.00(mm) and compressor trim of 55. A turbine A/R of .63, inducer/exducer of 65.5/55.9(mm) and turbine trim of 73. I feel this should spool up to max boost of 5psi(unless the 93 octane will let me run 7 without any ill effects, if not then 5 will be more than sufficient)by 2000rpms and should be starting to build boost just off idle.Timing will be set for 10-12*, will have to see what it likes best. This will be a in a towing vehicle and as such will be running highway mostly and light city driving and the final drive ratio gives a cruise speed of 65mph at 1800rpms so it would be good to have it in boost towing at speed in order to be able to pass and keep up with the with the Mario Andretti crowd on the road these days.( 85 in a 70mph zone and im still getting flipped the bird and my bumper ridden......) There will be an intercooler inline to keep temps down as the engine will be untouched internals wise. From research these engines are supposedly able to take 10psi on stock internals without ill effects if fuel and timing are accounted for, so i figure with an intercooler and 93 octane my modest boost levels should be ok. The engine is healthy and very much in good shape to be putting a turbo on it. Does anyone have any reasons why this project wouldn't work? Is my turbo sizing all wrong? Is the octane rating overkill( is there really such a thing lol) for what im planning? Any problems I might run into keeping the stock computer/fuelie system? Any and all help is very much appreciated.
"You are young Grasshopper, but you will learn." (Kung Fu)

sdiesel
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Location: NW Oregon,Buxton currently

Re: Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #2 by sdiesel » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:16 am

a very sound concept build. appears to be carefully thought out.
I especially like the remote turbo idea, but I'd like mine down just past the resonator or cat, if urs is not a tonner.
sick6 built a gorgeous remote turBo system, similar to ur design, though his was race stuff. not tow.
I hope u get feedback onbturbos. the turbo thread might also have info.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

pmuller9
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Re: Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #3 by pmuller9 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:33 am

The turbo size is perfect for what you want to do.

The oil from the turbo must dump above the oil level in the oil pan and the routing from the turbo must be downhill all the way.
If the turbo is below the oil line in the pan then a scavenging oil pump should be used.

The ignition timing should be retarded about 1 degree for each pound of boost.
Since the stock computer is set up to run with a 1 BAR Map sensor is there any way to accomplish boost retard?
Can you use a 2 BAR and re-map the entire timing table?

Larger injectors.

The fuel pressure is normally boost regulated so that the fuel pressure increases 1 to 1 with each pound of boost so the injector always see the same pressure differential.
Since the fuel pressure is high and IF you are going to run low boost (5 to 6) you may be able to compensate in the fuel table instead.
If you think you might like to try up to 10 lbs of boost then it is time to pressure regulate the fuel.

I don't know how much fuel flow the stock fuel pump can supply to support extra power.

Moderator: Please move this thread to the turbo section.

Grasshopper
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Re: Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #4 by Grasshopper » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:33 pm

My concerns with fueling is that i'm not positive if larger injectors are going to be beneficial or counterproductive. If I go to 19lb/hr injectors then the engine could run rich at idle until it builds boost enough to overcome it? Unless I put an adjustable regulator inline and see where it runs the best at? A wideband is most definitely a necessity and will be utilized. They do make vac/boost referenced regulators so I can set it to run right at idle with lower pressure and then it'll add pressure as boost builds? Sounds plausible. Would 19lb/hr be too much fueling for the boost levels im shooting for or not enough? Not looking for much, maybe 200hp( 210 sounds about a good guesstimation for what i've got planned.) But what i'm really looking forward to is the low end torque increase. This and swapping out the axles to 3.55 limited slips i picked up(going from 2:73 gears) should definitely give it some more pep to it's step. Oiling the turbo will be picked up from a tee off the sendor down to the turbo and then to over to the oil pan with a fitting welded in. I figure with the almost straight down run to the turbo that gravity should provide me with enough flow and the turbo enough pressure to just send it over and maybe a hair up to the oil pan. Unless any of you think that i'll need an external oil pump for something i'm just not seeing or don't know about.I don't know too much about MAP sensors and what works and what won't but all i've heard about these computers is that they don't like other than stock configurations and the farther away from stock the worse it gets.....
"You are young Grasshopper, but you will learn." (Kung Fu)

pmuller9
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Re: Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:56 pm

I was assuming that you were going to re-program the stock computer. If not this will not work.
If you don't know much about MAP sensors, programming is beyond your present level of expertise.

Going from the stock 14lb injectors to 19lbs at 59 lbs of fuel pressure will get you to 200 hp with a 90% duty cycle and 6 lbs of boost.
The engine rpm would be limited to 3500 rpm.

The 1 BAR map sensor will be maxed out before you get any boost leaving the computer at the top of the fuel table so there will be no change in fuel delivery once you get into boost.
If the injectors are sized for the correct fuel delivery at full boost then the engine will run very rich every where else.
Lowering the fuel pressure doesn't effect the fuel flow through the injector enough to compensate.

You have the same situation with the 1 BAR map sensor and the ignition timing table.
There will be NO timing control once there is boost and this is where the timing needs to be retarded 1 degree for every lb of boost.

Unless you can reprogram the stock computer you will need to go to an aftermarket computer.

Phase3
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Re: Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #6 by Phase3 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:39 pm

Sounds like a perfect candidate for stingers pimpx system. You will get full adjustability of everything with the autotune feature. It will work great pick whatever injectors you want.
Unfortunatly the oil return has to have fall to the pan. If the return was to fill with pressure, it will push through the oil seal eventually ruining the seal.
If you tune this you could see up to 275 wheel hp at 13 lbs. This is what my stock 300 made just pulled the engine in exchange for 240. Had 0 problems with all stock 240k mile engine.
1996 f150 turbo 4.9 OBD2 M5OD 4x4 12 lbs on 93
1997 f350 351w cclb

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MechRick
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Re: Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #7 by MechRick » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:12 pm

You'll need 30 lb-hr injectors even at 6 psi.

It might be possible to run a bigger injector and a MAF system with a bigger MAF sensor.

Running a carb head will drop compression to a more boost friendly level.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

Grasshopper
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Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #8 by Grasshopper » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:42 pm

Ok, so it appears as though it would be in my favor to not use the stock computer and MAP sensor. So would a Megasquirt-2 with a PCB3.0 work in place of the stock computer? To my knowledge it seems like it would work in my application. It's got it's own MAP sensor good for boost, it has ignition timing, fuel, and boost control capabilities. And it's not nearly expensive at all. I think this with a wideband should have 19lb hrs running great. What with it being a tow vehicle the engine won't hardly ever see anything past 2200rpm. 3000rpms maybe if i'm unloaded and wanting to keep up with the flow of traffic. I didn't think i would be able to get away with running the oil system without an external pump.... alright no problemo. If routing stays the same but with a pump after turbo then to oil pan would that work out better?
"You are young Grasshopper, but you will learn." (Kung Fu)

pmuller9
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Re: Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:57 pm

The Megasquirt-2 with a PCB3.0 will get the job done.
Use their Ford 60 pin connector and breakout adapter to make an adapter cable so you can plug into the stock Ford harness

Give yourself a little more margin on the injector size and run something around 24 lbs.

Yes the turbo oil return pump will prevent problems.

Here is a link to a remote turbo installation.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1393 ... st15578945

Does your turbocharger have a twin scroll turbine housing?

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MechRick
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Re: Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #10 by MechRick » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:33 am

The first injected turbo 4 I built, I tried 24 lb injectors at 10 psi. The duty cycle maxxed out before 4000 RPM. On an engine with 39 ci cylinders.

Moved up to 46 lb-hr low impedance injectors scavenged from cfi Ford cars. That creates power supply noise issues, but it worked.

Ended up with 63 lb-hr high impedance units at 14.5 psi.

Go bigger than you think you will need.

Xctasy posted a neat pic of a turbo installation where the exhaust pipe ducks under the oil pan and moves the turbo on the left side of the engine where there is lots of room. Short shoot from the turbo to the intake that way.
Last edited by MechRick on Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

pmuller9
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Posts: 3325
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #11 by pmuller9 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:39 am

MechRick wrote:Ended up with 63 lb-hr high impedance units at 14.5 psi.

Is 14.5 psi a misprint?

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MechRick
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Re: Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #12 by MechRick » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:38 am

Air, not fuel... :D

Sorry, I can be vague sometimes....
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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MechRick
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Location: Las Vegas, NV

Re: Yes, it's another turbo 300 thread.......

Post #13 by MechRick » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:53 am

To expound a bit, Ford chose the wimpy 14 lb-hr injectors for the six for two reasons: The head does not flow a lot of air, and the fuel pressure is set higher than V8's because of heat soak and vapor lock concerns.

I would drop fuel pressure in a forced induction setup. I don't like systems that run ultra-high fuel pressure, and whatever is boost gets added to the base fuel pressure. For instance, at 10 psi on a stock fuel pressure regulator, the end fuel pressure would be nearly 70 psi.

One of the things I've learned playing with turbos and blowers is boost changes everything. You can take a bad cylinder head design (I.E., Ford 2.3), add a little boost, and it becomes a great performer exceeding the output math. Chrysler worked this concept to great advantage with their 2.2L and 2.5L U port headed engines way back when. The U port 300 really wakes up with a little forced induction.

Downsides? You may have to run premium fuel. I may experiment with a low boost engine with knock-sensing using a GM knock module.

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/knock.htm

It will be in an engine with hyper pistons, where detonation could be lethal. Megasquirts can be set up with dual tables for timing and fuel at the flip of a toggle switch, allowing tables for both 87 and 91 octane.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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