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Mystery fuel pump for 200

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BoncStang-60s
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Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #1 by BoncStang-60s » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:10 am

Hi, I'm new as of today. I've been tinkering on my wife's 67 Mustang coupe for 19 years. It's a no frills coupe but she loves it. This year I'm replacing the fuel system. I've replaced everything but fuel pump.

I can't seem to find one that fits. I'm told a Carter M60387 is the one and I've tried 3 and neither fit.

Since I really don't know the history of this car I looked at the engine block. It is cast C6DE. Online decoders tell me that it's a 66 Falcon engine.

My Napa dealer said it's the same pump. Any ideas if a different pump is needed?

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #2 by wsa111 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:02 am

Carter M60387 is the one it lists on Rock Auto for a 66 or 67.
You may try Advance, Autozone or O'Reillys & check other brands.
I have run several Carters & they have plenty of fuel pressure, but they heat up the fuel so much i was getting vapor lock just driving down the road.
I suggest going to an electric fuel pump. Needless to say that took care of the vapor lock condition.
Another plus is when you shut the engine off, fuel pressure at the carb. drops to zero, thus no flooding during heat soak.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6425CL & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #3 by bubba22349 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:47 pm

:hmmm: So here's a video of site member "MustangDadDrake's Mustang 200 six running in that video if you look closely you can see some of the details of a correctly installed Carter fuel pump.:nod:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=you ... WswXgAexn4
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am hunting for a cheap project car to build up. My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #4 by BoncStang-60s » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:18 pm

bubba22349, thanks for the link. That looks the same as our engine. The old pump looks like the one on this engine.

What baffles me is why the replacement from the parts store won't fit.

Is it possible that the 66 Falcon block took a different pump?

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #5 by bubba22349 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:52 pm

There isn't any differance in any of the 200 blocks as far as the fuel pump mounting location and bolt hole pattern. However different year models of car body's can use a different number fuel pump. In your first post I had also decoded your engine numbers, your engine was made in mid January of 1967 so it's a 1967 engine. Not being there I don't know why you can't get any of the Carter M60387 fuel pumps to fit it's the right part number for a direct fit on a 1967 Mustang 200 six. You could also try a different brand fuel pump like AC Delco or some others by asking the parts house to cross referance the Carter M60387 number. Best of luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am hunting for a cheap project car to build up. My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #6 by chad » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:54 am

ere's what most us use:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-m60514
See pic.
Cuz ada arm we simply turn it upside dwn to hook into the cam that operates it.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #7 by BoncStang-60s » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:18 am

bubba22349, thanks. I may be an idiot but I'm ok with that. Saturday is another day, so I'll try again. I thought the casting number on my block indicated 66 Falcon, although the pump for a falcon 66 may be the same as the 67.
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #8 by BoncStang-60s » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:20 am

Chad, the link you provided is for a Plymouth, dodge engine.
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #9 by chad » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:19 pm

BoncStang-60s wrote:Chad, the link you provided is for a Plymouth, dodge engine.

its the one.
These things are so simple, similar. One model fits all 4 i6 (may B even the 240/300).

Here's a lill more wrk for ya:
Fuel pump stock - FSP-200-MFP

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/e ... ys-driving

See this 2 yr old article around the fuel pump issue. No worries, safe, enuff GPM and PSI for this motor =
more than you need !

If he doesn't use the carter st/strip it not needed

https://fordsix.com/ci/FuelPump.html
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #10 by bubba22349 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:11 pm

BoncStang-60s wrote:bubba22349, thanks. I may be an idiot but I'm ok with that. Saturday is another day, so I'll try again. I thought the casting number on my block indicated 66 Falcon, although the pump for a falcon 66 may be the same as the 67.


I don't think that at all, first times at doing anything new can take longer to get the hang of it. That's why these little six'es are ideal engines to learn on because of their simplicity. I can see that you are willing to learn and that's the always the first step to any new adventure! So I encourage you to keep trying and success will come with your learning. Don't know but there may even be a good video on YouTube somewhere that covers the install of the fuel pump. Something like thes excellent video's by our talented site member "echo1955" covering the rebuilding of his 200 engine worth a look sometime when you have more time as you can see all the inter workings parts of the 200 engines. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77528

Yes they are often called Falcon engines since the orginal design of this engine family (the 144, 170, 200) was for use the new for 1960 Falcon. Yet the same same engines were also used in the early Mercury Comets, and in the following years several other car models / body styles such as the Fairlanes, Mustangs etc. Later on when Ford stopped production of the Falcons the 170's & 200's were then designated for primary use in the new 1969 1/2 Maverick models, and later still with ending of Maverick production it changed again as now for use in the new for 1978 Fairmont's. Best of luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am hunting for a cheap project car to build up. My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #11 by bubba22349 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:31 pm

So did a quick search of "you tube" didn't find much on a fuel pump change out on AC 1967 Mustang 200 six there is one for a 1966 Mustang 200 the fuel pump is seemular and the principal work involved will be same too, (see first link). In the video you can see the removal of old pump and reinstall of new pump fairly well.

In the second link is some work being done to put a 67 coupe back on the road has some good views of the fuel pump as well. Hope that helps you some. Though it's not going to be soon enough for your repair lately I have been thinking of making and posting some videos to show how some of these jobs are performed on these great little six'es since there is so little video material posted for them, will be looking for the right equipment and software to be able to do them. Hope this is of some help best of luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited

1966 Mustang Fuel Pump Replacement
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DATJhbkvn7M

1967 Mustang Coupe 200 six getting it back running after setting for 20 years
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6wx4sQNf5Ug
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am hunting for a cheap project car to build up. My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #12 by BoncStang-60s » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:24 pm

bubba22349, thank you and the others for the support as I try and figure this out.

Today I took off the old pump for the third time and tried installing the Carter M60387 pump. This time I rotated the engine an 1/8th turn while trying to fit the pump. No luck it just does not fit. I put the old one on, no problem.

My Napa dealer suggested I look for numbers on the old pump so scraped off old paint and found some numbers.

E 048C 40957

I searched the number 40957 and an AC Delco pump that looks just like my old one came up on the search.

I'm going to try and get one.

Thanks, Tom
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #13 by bubba22349 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:28 am

Tom I am rooting for you good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am hunting for a cheap project car to build up. My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #14 by chad » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:22 am

funny, I have the delphi (same model?) from the vid
bubba posted, they must make hundreds of millions?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #15 by BoncStang-60s » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:53 am

My description of my last attempt was a little goofed up. What I meant was that I turned the engine manually 1/8th turn at a time trying to find the low point of the pump cam. I did this all the way around and still could not install this new pump.

Once I get a new one with part#40957 I'll update this post.

Thanks, Tom
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #16 by B RON CO » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:34 am

Hi, if you put the two pumps side by side do you see what is different? Arm length, arm angle? Something must be different. Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

1933 Ford Pickup - 59A Flathead V8
1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #17 by BoncStang-60s » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:59 am

Hi B RON CO,

It's hard to measure, but what looks different to me is the pivot point of the rocker arm of the new pump looks to be about 1/8 of an inch lower than the old one.

Since I now have a part number I'm going to buy another and cross my fingers.

PS I also have a Ford 239 flathead v8 in my 51 F-1 1/2 ton 5 Star extra cab.

Tom
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #18 by BoncStang-60s » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:16 pm

One curious note. Searching online for 40957, I mostly come up with NOS or used on eBay. I found a few references to an equivalent Carter M6399. The picture does look like the old pump.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-m6399

Tom
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #19 by chad » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:45 pm

I've only seen 4 or 6 of these, they all look like the last link.
They can go on upside dwn or right side up.
The only difference I've seen is the arm on 1 or 2 hada diviot out of it for the cam.
Worse case? Drive out the lill pin holding the arm in each and slip ur ol arm onto the new...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #20 by bubba22349 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:50 pm

Hi Tom, you could use a mirror to see when the fuel pump lobe is at its lowest point. Also with a new pump there isn't any wear yet so the eccentric arm and pivot pin, the arms return spring, and Diafram, everything is much tighter than a well used pump, making it harder to install.

:wow: :rolflmao: This really was a Mystery Fuel Pump! :shock: So someone for some unknown reason had installed a different year fuel pump on your 67 Mustang (which is a one year only pump) at some point in its past and caused all this confusion. :hmmm: Yes that Carter M6399 fuel pump will bolt right onto any 200 six engine block even though its orginal design was for use on the later model Ford & Mercury cars and the 240 & 300 big six's used in the Ford pickups, included in this is the 1968 to 70 200 Mustangs because it covers a number of years it's probally eaier to find. If you like its fit better might be good to write down that part number somewhere so you will have it for the next time you need a fuel pump.

Still the question I have is why you weren't able to bolt on the correct year fuel pump? Referring to the video posted above on the 66 Mustang fuel pump install. When you were trying to install the Carter M60387 fuel pump and using the blocks mounting bolt holes as the dividing line or reference point, are you putting the fuel pumps eccentric arm on the top half going into the hole or on the bottom half? :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am hunting for a cheap project car to build up. My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #21 by BoncStang-60s » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:56 pm

Hi bubba22349,

I agree that none of this makes sense. But this engine is a mystery or I'm not capable of putting on a simple fuel pump.

I put the rocker arm on the top of the block opening because I believe the cam rides on the bottom of the rocker arm.

This engine has another odd history as it doesn't have the correct dip stick, but I'll start a different thread for that when the pump issue is behind me.

Tom
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #22 by chad » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:21 am

BoncStang-60s wrote: dip stick

haha, just hafta laugh. I heard that used as a derogitory: "You;re a dip stick." Think it might have started w/a late 60s TV show?
Anyway,
when I purchsaed my bronk in '82 or 3 it had 2 dip sticks - "L" & "R". I saw one in the oil pan, one near the fuel pump. After 10, 15 yrs of ownership I got down to it a lill more and since the hood hit the A/C I decided the short block came from a car. I got a late model frame later, (heavier duty 2.5 inch SL, etc) swapped everything over (it wuz a bent8 so hada torch off the engine towers, arc-on i6 for the 170). Long story short. Still later yet I saw that the 250 I wanted to swap in hada front sump. :idea: My motor DID come from a car! Bronk 170s must have a rear sump. Pre '83 after a blown motor the Shell Gas station owner (2nd to own the bronk) must have got the rig w/a blown motor cheep and when swapin in any ol 170 he just kept the bronk specific pan (so it would not hit the frnt differential). The clutch he put in? Another story (longer) may B 4 another day...a 50 yr old vehicle under the same owner 38 yrs. We B da mystery men, one'n all... :twisted:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #23 by BoncStang-60s » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:48 pm

Chad,

Glad to know I'm not the only one with a mystery engine. My Napa dealer was able to confirm the pump cross reference to Carter M6399. They were going to have to special order for about $50.

They suggested finding it elsewhere. Amazon had it direct from Carter for $23. Expected here today.

Tom
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #24 by BoncStang-60s » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:27 pm

Ugh,

The plot thickens. I recruited my 80 year old father in-law, retired mechanical engineer, he was a designer of military jet engines for Pratt and Whitney in the early 60s. He also worked for a auto parts contractor that manufactured the first dashboard pads for Ford in the mid to late 60s. My mother in-law sewed a prototype material together that was used to test the simulated stitches of the 67 Mustang dashboard.

But back to my present problem. Working together we were able to find the low spot on the cam. With the help of plyers we were able to pivot the new pump on one bolt until we could catch a thread. This allowed us to complete the installation.

Unfortunately, this pump is not working. No fuel. We tried pressurizing the tank, primed the pump, but nothing worked. Tomorrow I will put the old one back on, and test it's function again.

Once again, I am at a loss to why I can't install a simple fuel pump. :(
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #25 by bubba22349 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:32 pm

You could try Pumping some fuel into the new pump to prime it, but also as long as there is fuel still in the carb the engine should start right up and eventually the new fuel will also start pulling fuel from the tank and pumping fuel to the carb. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am hunting for a cheap project car to build up. My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #26 by BoncStang-60s » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:30 am

bubba22349,

Yes, we tried these steps and others. Iater today I'll put the old pump on for the 4th time and test again.

If the old pump work I'm not sure where to go next except maybe an electric pump.
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #27 by BoncStang-60s » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:53 am

So I did learn something from all of this.

- Carter M60387 is the correct pump for our 67 Mustang 6-200. Of course you guys knew that.
- The old pump on my engine 40957, which I've seen NOS of, crosses to Carter M3699.
- The fuel IN for M60387 is for 5/16" rubber hose as it should be.
- The fuel IN for M3699 & 40957 is for a 3/8" rubber hose.

Tom
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #28 by frozenrabbit » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:13 pm

Pics?

Ford 6's do not take some exotic fuel pump.

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BoncStang-60s
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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #29 by BoncStang-60s » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:01 pm

File size restrictions are to small. I reduced them to around 245k and I can't even attach one.
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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chad
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Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #30 by chad » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:35 pm

BoncStang-60s wrote:File size restrictions are to small. I reduced them to around 245k and I can't even attach one.

link to hosting site sorta as U did in post #18:
google docs, photobucket, etc
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #31 by BoncStang-60s » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:15 pm

Chad

Thanks for the suggestion. Try this link

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... UDSLcofJ7m
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #32 by BoncStang-60s » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:39 pm

Just shared the folder
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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chad
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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #33 by chad » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:40 pm

hummmm, may B I should not have suggested THAT one. It requires "a permission".
When some of my consults have sent me pic I guess I already "had permission" as it just opened 4 me.
:oops:
Not too good on these processes altho w/puters (a terminal connected to MIT) since '66 and on-line in '83 (Nexus/Lexus).
May B photo bucket or what others more familiar w/this stuff offer when showing up here. :hmmm:

EDIT:
OK, I C da pic...
In my mind there's no difference in the 2 final pic. The old might have been placed in 'right side up'...w/the long assembly pointing up. U will C in other pic most have the long up, but a rare 1 will B 'upside down'.
The new should do so as well (swap). The arms do look a lill different. If U want, follow my above suggestion and swap arms only.
I can't see Y the arm will not go onto the cam (hidden inside the block). Ur pliers handle was a good idea - can U see in there? No" - try the new pump upside down...fiddle by 'bumping the motor' (short 'turn over' w/ign key just jogged, not an actual start) then try the pump. This would position the cam differently. Never had this issue w/the 4 or so I've done.

Now I C U have a 170 bronk. Go C that one. The pump will most likely B 'right side up'.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #34 by frozenrabbit » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:10 pm

That new one doesn't look the same. Body farther away from mount surface, arm looks different.

Not sure what's up. I've bought one off the shelf at local parts store. and a new older style canister filter one from eBay. Both fit without a problem.

Even with lobe up on cam, it didn't take pliers to compress the pump arm to install.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #35 by BoncStang-60s » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:27 pm

:bang: no luck tonight. I have now tried both brand new Carter pumps and neither work. M60387 and M6399. Both have identical mounting flange and rocker arm.

- These are installed upright as intended to match up with the stock steel line to the carburetor.
- zero suction is felt on the INput and zero pressure felt at output when cranking engine.
- I don't know the history of this engine so for all I know it may have the wrong cam in the engine.

- I'm out of options except electric.

- Thanks everyone for the help.
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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BoncStang-60s
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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #36 by BoncStang-60s » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:31 pm

frozenrabbit

Exactly, my old pump does not require plyers and goes right on without having to position engine to the low spot.

Tom
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #37 by bubba22349 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:38 pm

Not going to be the cam only few different stock cams grinds through out all the years of the 200's production and the fuel pumps eccentric is made the same on all of them. Pictures help a lot thank you X2 I am with Frozenrabbit' that new pump looks odd the arm much longer and mounting flange looks to be made so the pump would be installed pointing down instead of like your old one which is up, you could try that mounting with it but then all your line hook ups will need to be changed. For a better comparison could you take a few pictures of the two pumps next to each other? What's the origin or country of manufacture of these new fuel pumps? Just curious you have said you keep reinstalling the old pump again is it still working ok? What was your reason for wanting to replace it? :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am hunting for a cheap project car to build up. My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #38 by BoncStang-60s » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:43 pm

First you guys are awesome. Just having someone to bounce issues off of has been helpful and encouraging.

I thought I posted side by side pictures. I'll look again.

So the pump has to go upright for all the reasons stated. I don't know the pump's location of manufacture, but the new ones are both Carter. One maddening thing is I've seen different pictures for the same Carter pump online. The one picture that looks the most like my old one, I can't seem to get.

I did find a NOS AMGAUGE 40957 Fuel Pump on ebay for $20 and it's on its way.

This engine has had a mystery power issue that would hesitate and stall at stop signs and run rough or lose power at cruise speed. This year I set out to replace everything from the tank to the carburetor and the pump is the only thing I haven't been able to replace.

The pump may be fine as I think the above symptoms are gone, but now I'm determined to have a new pump or at least a spare.
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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chad
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Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #39 by chad » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:19 pm

after doing this a lill while (fielding Qs on-line @ a forum) I see a pattern. Some ask a Q w/the answ already embedded in the Q. Stead of a statement abt a problem. I fear this may B another - but certainly have no idea...

"...This engine has had a mystery power issue that would hesitate and stall at stop signs and run rough or lose power at cruise speed. This year I set out to replace everything from the tank to the carburetor and the pump is the only thing I haven't been able to replace...."
Many of these issues can best B addressed w/ignition tunes or checks 1st, then a move onto fuel issues. I may B among the few this point applies to as I can not afford alota new parts, others want or don't care how many new parts they install. It's a hobby and time is not of the essence. And more
:thumbup:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #40 by BoncStang-60s » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:41 pm

Chad,

Thanks for your candid response. Sometimes it takes someone else to see the answer in the question, which is why these forums are so valuable. I don't have any professional mechanics training and have learned by doing and asking questions of those with knowledge and experience.

We started with rebuilding the carburetor, then timing, points condenser. This has happened over the last few years. With no change, then I turned to fuel delivery.

We've had this car for 19 years and drove it regularly for the first 5 years. When we started a family it was parked in the barn. Now are kids are teens and so we're focusing on the car again.

It may seem we're just throwing money at this, but that's not true. I'm trying to understand how this all works and learn as we go.

This problem with the replacement pumps is real and now I just want to know what is going on so I can get a replacement fuel pump when I need it.
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #41 by chad » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:27 am

What a great story.
I love it.
I too am not a mechanic.
I am some1 who loves systems (of any kind: plants, humans, mechanical). I look and it is all I see. So I tumble into this and see what's stated in my last post. One was a fel...no, I'll not cite examples. It is something that can delay the fantastic abilities of some here who so freely offer. "How can I fix this?" not the better: "I have this problem. What can B some or the 1 best solution?" They don't seem/sound that different, do they? Wrkin w/human systems I C it all the time. May B it just wrks beddah in MY experience, w/MY stuff? It probably doesn't even fit yours. I offer as aid, hope it did not come off as paternalistic, shaming, etc. :oopsie:
I certainly have spouted off my big mouth'n done THAT once, er...ah...twice? :nod: :nono:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #42 by John Ha » Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:52 am

This is going to sound really silly but are you trying to put it in with the fuel inlet and outlets facing up toward the top of the engine? I struggled with mine too and tried really hard to put it in upside-down (fuel inlet and outlet side down) until I looked at photos before disassembly and found that it doesn't go that way.
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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #43 by BoncStang-60s » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:34 pm

John Ha

I'm ok with silly questions. The old one is installed upright and so are the new ones. The only issue has been the fitment. They are supposed to be exact replacement from Carter but are different.

My father in-law and I measure an 1/8th" lower rocker arm on the new pumps and this is causing the difficult installs. Since the pumping occurs on the down stroke no pumping occurs with the new pump.

Here are some pictures
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... UDSLcofJ7m
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #44 by John Ha » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:15 pm

Cool.

When I look at side-by-side photos of the one you removed and the new one I see that the neck between the pump body and the mount flange is much longer on the newer unit. Looking at RockAuto.com I see that the Carter pump for that application has the longer neck but the others (Spectra, Airtex, Delphi, etc.) have the shorter neck like your original (https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/for ... +pump,6256).

Just me but I think I'd be inclined to try one of the others with the shorter neck.

Late edit: Autozone sells the Delphi and Spectra pumps. Maybe you could get one in at your local store quickly
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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #45 by wsa111 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:25 pm

The new design of the Carter moves the body further from the flange & puts out close to 7 #
It heats the fuel so much i had problems with vapor lock driving down the road.
The others put out less pressure & don't overheat the fuel as much.
Go electric & you will never go back to the mechanical pump.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6425CL & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
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Re: Mystery fuel pump for 200

Post #46 by BoncStang-60s » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:19 pm

These new Carter pumps won't even work on my engine. I'd prefer to solve the pump issue. An electric is an option. If I go that way I'll be asking this forum for help with an electric pump installation.
1967 Mustang coupe, 6-200, automatic, power steering, manual drums. Bought in 2001 as a project. Not a show car, the goal is to drive. A work in progress, many reliability and safety upgrades.

1966 Bronco, 6-170, 3 speed manual column. My wife's grandfather's. This is mine, but waiting for my attention. Lots of body rust. Probably a retirement project a few years off.

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